What does it cost to start learning Chinese well

[hedwards]

I think textbooks with basic grammar are pretty much unavoidable as the alternative means a lot more work and probably a lot of incorrect things learned. So, it's definitely possible, I mean people usually learn to communicate before they learn about grammar, but it's such a waste of time that I recommend against it.

 

I'll +1 the suggestion of Pleco, it's worthless for handwriting, but it more than makes up for that by allowing you to take signs and books and figure out what the characters are.

 

I'd also suggest that a good leveled reader is a great source of motivation. I get mine online and then use imron's CTA to make up a bunch of flashcards for the entire book. There's something motivating about that first time you read an entire page without having to consult with a dictionary or reference that's magical.

 

I definitely wouldn't paying for podcasts though. There's just way too many free podcasts out there to justify paying for one. Youku.com and even Youtube have plenty of materials. Not to mention the various internet radio stations speaking in Mandarin. One of the huge mistakes people make is relying on audio for beginners and not bothering to get proper exposure to higher level materials. I don't understand much of what I'm hearing on the radio, but I'm better keeping up with the speakers and I'm identifying more and more of the words as I go.

 

As for the character aspect, I think that's worth buying books for. There's good ones like Remembering Hanzi by Heisig.

 

But, most of the online resources are way too expensive when you consider the typical burn out rate on an language. I think Chinese has an especially high burn out rate due to the amount of work you have to put in on literacy in order to get anywhere and the much higher than normal difficulty of memorizing vocabulary without knowing the character.

 

For a hundred dollars a year, I could probably get a one on one lesson every other week and probably make a lot more progress as a result. Or just about every week if I don't mind working with somebody that isn't certified.

[renzhe]

Yeah, I would prioritise investment which is likely to serve you a long time: Good textbook series, good grammar reference, good dictionary. Good books to read. I don't know anyone who regretted such an investment.

I would also prioritise teaching, if you can afford it. A good teacher will provide or suggest much of the stuff you need. This tends to be expensive, so it's not a long-term option for everyone.

The rest is for stuff you happen to be struggling with.

[roddy]

Edit: below was responding to Hofmann...

 

Any particular textbook?

 

I just had a look at Pleco's in-house dictionary and was impressed by the quantity of example sentences - which you get audio for in the Basic bundle. Is there a free E>C dictionary, or one in the basic bundle?

 

But MDBG? No examples of usage of 的. MDBG gives you a quick translation, fair enough. But compare that with what you get in the ABC or Pleco's own dictionary. Got be worth a few bucks, no?

 

As for MOE - well, if you read the first post, we're not being cheap, and we're not being advanced.

 

"actually a bit annoying for being alphabetical by Pinyin. "

If by annoying, you mean convenient for the vast majority of members on here ;-)

[hedwards]

@renzhe, the main reason that I suggest having a teacher or tutor, isn't purely because I teach English, it's because a teacher is going to be able to help prioritize the concepts and answer questions about the language. Second best is finding somebody that's willing to talk to you as if you're a small child. I know it's kind of condescending, but for beginners it beats being puzzled by unnecessarily difficult language.

 

One size fits all courses work well for some, but I've never found an online one that worked for me. In class has worked for me in the past, but I find that online classes are pretty much the worst of both worlds. You get the isolation of self study without the exposure to other student's experiments that you should get from a class.

[Hofmann]

Any particular textbook?

No. The textbooks I used in school were dismal, although having them was better than not. One of my professors was working on a textbook that should be publishing this year. I intend to obtain a copy and review it, and hope I can finally recommend a textbook.

 

I think quick translation is what most beginners need most of the time, which is why I recommended MDBG until Pleco makes something easily accessible on x86. Yes, I actually use x86 devices more than my phone. If you don't then free Pleco accomplishes this and more. So free Pleco doesn't have audio for example sentences. It's nice to have but I wouldn't think it's very useful.

[Shelley]

I tried MDBG but it was so badly behaved on my pc that I gave up with it. I now use Wen Lin on my desk top.

 

But yes I think we are all waiting for Pleco on windows ( I know for reasons explained to me before, that that is very unlikely, but we can dream)

[Kobo-Daishi]

But yes I think we are all waiting for Pleco on windows ( I know for reasons explained to me before, that that is very unlikely, but we can dream)

 

What are the reasons?

 

I'm like Hofmann. I mainly use my desktop for learning Chinese.

 

I got a Samsung phablet this past X-mas, but, I mainly use it for killing time with The Simpsons: Tapped Out. I did download the free Pleco app, but, rarely use it.

 

I still don't understand why the kids at work all have their heads down at their smart phones all the time, texting or playing games.

 

I guess it's a generational thing.

 

On my desktop, I've got every possible Chinese dictionary from free scanned copies available from share sites.

 

Kobo.

[Shelley]

I was told that the licensing was a major problem for getting pleco on desktops running window/i OS. I asked the question some years ago and this was the main point of the answer.

[hedwards]

@Kobo, it's because a phone is more likely to be with you when you're out. If I needed a computer, I wouldn't need to have Pleco, but since I own a license to Pleco, I'd use it with my laptop if I had the option.

 

I had a laptop with me in China and it was rarely with me when I needed to look up a character I didn't know, whereas my cell phone would be with me whenever I left the house. Also, the flashcards are great when you're waiting for the bus or trying to kill time before an appointment.

 

@Shelley, that might well be part of the problem, but doing Windows would require a complete rewrite of the program.

[Shelley]

I am not a programmer but I first had pleco for my windows mobile device years ago, so there is a windows version but only mobile,

[Bad Cao Cao]

So... 99% of people who learn to native level don't start with a textbook for the first 5 years. 99+% of those who fail start with a textbook. Time to rethink your advice guys.

[imron]

lol at anyone who recommends a textbook. Couldn't disagree more. Guaranteed to extend the time to fluency.

I wrote up my thoughts on this for Olle's series on learning grammar.

In a nutshell, I think not following a textbook or some other kind of structured course will stunt your progress as you get to more advanced levels.

[hedwards]

@Shelley, that's a completely different architecture, it probably has more in common with Android or iOS than it does with Windows. Scratch that, it probably has nothing to do with either one as your phone was probably running an Intel xscale processor. And pretty much all modern handhelds use some sort of ARM derivative.

 

@imron, I definitely agree with you. If you try to learn completely without a text book, you're going to wind up with a lot of holes in your understanding of the language, and probably also understanding that something is the case without any understanding of why or how it fits into the bigger picture.

 

A text book is an essential aspect, even if you only use it as a reference from time to time.

[imron]

99% of people who learn to native level don't start with a textbook for the first 5 years. 99+% of those who fail start with a textbook

Can you back those statistics up with any sort of study or are you just making them up from thin air?  Also, correlation does not equal causation.

[character]

I was thinking about what the independent student setting out to learn Chinese should get, assuming they have a bit of money to spend on it - not thousands, but say a mid-range three-figure US$ sum.

[...]

Which of these purchases would you recommend, or recommend skipping? Anything else you think would be a good value addition?

 

Great topic!

 

Roddy, I think that $99/year Integrated Chinese online bundle may only include 1 semester's book, not access to all Integrated Chinese textbooks, so that may be a skip.

I think getting a list of pinyin online and getting a patient tutor would be my first suggestion. Bring a digital recorder and record the sessions. The goal should be to get to the point of being able to pronounce the various sounds correctly and correctly transcribe them when the tutor speaks. How long that would take would depend on the individual, but IMO having that basis would save a lot of suffering later. I suspect it's a lot easier to get this down in a 1:1 setting than in a 'Chinese 101' classroom.  Given the budget, that might all the 1:1 tutoring which could be afforded.

 

Rather than Skritter, I would recommend two books: Learn to Write Chinese Characters by Johan Björkstén ($21.50) and Reading and Writing Chinese: Third Edition by William McNaughton ($13.19) Learn to Write has great advice about how to make characters look right, while Reading and Writing has a progressive list of characters, building in a logical way from simpler to more complex characters.

An evenings or weekends Chinese class, if one is available, say $200/semester including textbooks. Otherwise, just the textbooks/audio.

Anki + HSK flashcards, online dictionaries (free) and/or a Pleco bundle. I would have given up on Chinese w/o Pleco, but sometimes money can be tight and it's not certain that one will continue to study Chinese.

If traditional characters are OK, then the DeFrancis Beginning Chinese: Second Revised Edition ($38) and Character Text for Beginning Chinese: Second Edition ($41) (audio available online for free) provide a lot of reading practice, grammar reinforcement, etc.

That's probably the money spent for the year. Lots of other great suggestions already posted, and lots of stuff available online for free.

[hedwards]

@imron, he's probably referring to children and it's a stupid way of doing it if you've already developed a sense of possibility in one language.

 

Children start out without any concept of what one can express in a language. A child does not know what a noun or a verb is. In some languages verbs and nouns function a bit differently than others, however every language has something that performs those functions.

 

I'll have to dig around for it, but adults, by virtue of having mastered at least one language are in a much better position to learn languages 2, 3 and possibly 4 than a child is to learn their first. It's just that learning a language is mandatory for anybody who wants to live in society and a great deal of attention is paid to making sure that all children learn at least one language.

[grawrt]

It's been a while since I used Integrated Chinese but when I used it I thought it was a good textbook albeit a little expensive. I'm not sure how the whole-online version is but when I used this book for class we only had access to the online material for that semester. After that you couldn't access it again. I'm not sure if they changed it but I can imagine how frustrating it would be for a self-studier who wants to go back to listen to find they are denied access.

I wouldn't bother with Lang8 membership personally as I've never had trouble with people not correcting my entries.

I think beginners should definitely invest in Skritter. I can proudly say that the reason why I remember so many characters and their correct stroke order is because of Skritter. It really helped push me out of my reliance on pinyin. It's expensive, yes. But really a wise investment. I wish I had used it earlier in my studies. (I was a pen & paper person before)

Pleco is good but I don't think a beginner needs the professional bundle at the very beginning. Maybe the basic is better. I really like the flashcards. In my opinion Anki is such a time waster when it comes to flashcards. I always feel like I spend more time MAKING flashcards than actual reviews. Pleco is simple, and easy to add and edit cards if you don't like the definition. I always do this to make minor changes.

Ive used popup chinese but only the free version but I never stuck with popup chinese for long. The lessons really are random and in my honest opinion not that helpful for beginner students. Yes the podcasts are funny but not really something to invest in.

I'd like to add yoyochinese.com for independent students. I tested the site out a while back and I think Yangyang is a great teacher. She's clear, and really knows her English well so she can help make sense of certain pronunciation or tones for native speakers in a way they might understand.The only bad thing is that their lessons are only available on the website. I wouldn't recommend the long-time subscription but maybe for the very beginning to work on proper pronunciation, tones and the basics. It only took me a month to go through all the lessons but I mostly just looked them over to get a feel for them. I think an absolute beginner realistically might spend 1-3 months.

[icebear]

• Textbook - I'm partial to Road to Success, although NPCR and a number of others are good also. Additionally, I'd recommend Common Chinese Patterns 330 as a supplement (perhaps after the first book of a formal series). I'd guess $10/book.

MP3s - PopupChinese or ChinesePod, basic package (RSS feed of your lessons) is more than adequate. Integrate Chinese listening into your commute. Textbook CDs work as well, but a RSS feed to your player takes all the guesswork out - just hit play as you leave the door. ~$100 for one of the two basic subscriptions

Pleco - I understand there are other dictionary and flashcard programs, but this is seriously the best deal in town. At a minimum the flashcard and reader addons, but I agree with others that if you know you're going to stick with Chinese then its worth investing in one of the better packages early on. ~$40-100 for a package

Tutoring - online or in person, it shouldn't cost more than $10/hour. I recommend twice a week, 1-1.5 hours each time. Over time the learner can gauge if they need more or less, but in general I think they should be either studying independently or speaking spontaneously several multiples of the time they spend with a formal tutor.

[roddy]

Wow, excellent response here folks. 

[renzhe]

So... 99% of people who learn to native level don't start with a textbook for the first 5 years. 99+% of those who fail start with a textbook. Time to rethink your advice guys.

You might want to start presenting more convincing arguments rather than throwing around unsubstantiated Big Statements.

It would help if you told us how many foreign languages you've learned to fluency as an adult without a textbook, and what level (in terms of standardised certificates) you've obtained in them, so we can put your advice into perspective.