Chinese American Society and White Husbands

[Guest DavidCarl]

Hello,

 

I have been married to my Chinese wife now for 9 years.  I was born in the US and I am Caucasian.  My family immigrated from Germany in 1948.  My father was an Air Force Pilot so we grew up an a fairly integrated military system.

 

I have always been attracted to Asian woman and dated a Japanese woman in College.  My first marriage was to a white woman and we had three children.  She divorced me after 17 years and when I started dating again I dated an Asian woman.  She was born in the US, but ultimately did not want to be married to me.  After several years I met my current wife online.  She immigrated from Mainland China to Hong Kong.  And then from Hong Kong to Vancouver, BC.  I drove up to BC to meet her and we had a long distance relationship for nearly a year before I convinced her to move to my town and marry me.

 

She was married when she immigrated to Vancouver, BC.  She was also pregnant and had a baby girl shortly after landing in Vancouver.  The marriage did not survive the immigration.  She divorced her husband and her daughter went back to China to live with her Grandparents.  I came in to the picture a couple of years after this.  She had a job, an apartment, and her Canadian citizenship by the time we got together.

 

When we decided to get married we traveled to China and I met her family and we brought her daughter back home with us, she was 4.  Her daughter is very bright.  She learned to speak English in a few short months.  My wife could read, write and speak English fluently, but we still have trouble communicating.  She prefers her native Mandarin.  She reads Mandarin all day online and watches Chinese TV shows via the internet in Mandarin.  I don't mind this at all.  Her daughter stays fluent in Mandarin as well.  They speak Mandarin in the house.  I have not learned it at all.

 

When they first came to my town I looked for any social group of Mandarin speaking people so she could make friends and feel more at home.  I found a Chinese American society and a Chinese Christian Church.  Many of the same people attended both.  Most are from Taiwan, students that studied in the US and then immigrated and also immigrated their parents.  At first I was very grateful to find these groups.  I always found it difficult to fit in there, but I always made a point of participating in their social activities.  I know it was important to my wife.

 

So after 9 years, here is where we find ourselves.  The group that was so welcoming to her at first has turned out to be very competitive and the relationships have not been good for my her.  The mothers compete through their children's accomplishments and spend most of their time comparing how well their children are doing and comparing material "keep up with the jones" type accomplishments.  Who has the new car, new house, most expensive vacations, and so on.

We are doing quite well, but we are both turned off by this as the only topic of conversation during any of the social events.

 

For a long time when I was present everyone would make an effort to speak English or translate for me when I was around.  Many times they would take turns keeping me company.  As time went buy that politeness has vanished.  Now if I am sitting at a table with the group they all converse in Mandarin and exclude me entirely from the conversation.  I usually take a book to read or spend time talking with the kids that are all speaking English.

 

Most recently we have not been invited to the Christmas or New Years parties.  This was most devastating to my wife. She was really hurt.  Mostly because our daughter was excluded from being with her friends at the church.  These were private parties hosted at peoples homes where we had been invited in previous years.

 

She said today that she would probably stop going to the Church entirely now.  She said she doesn't feel like they are truly her friends.  I feel very bad about the situation and feel like I am somewhat at fault for giving up at talking with people at the social events.  I don't know if it is true, but I have always felt there has been some degree of discrimination against us because I am white.  There are two other mixed couples in the group, but their husbands never attend much.

 

Has anyone else had similar experiences with Chinese American Societies or social groups of any kind?

 

David

[LiMo]

Hi David,

 

Firstly, I will say that I'm afraid that I do not have any experience of this myself, but I hope that my limited insight can help nevertheless.

 

There are a couple of problems here.

 

I don't know if you have ever tried to learn a second language but it is always easier to say something in your mother tongue. One of the reasons it's so hard to learn a second language is that the urge to communicate is a very strong one, and being human we want to communicate as effectively and easily as possible, why stumble through something in English when you can say it all in Mandarin. The point I'm getting at here is that, assuming they aren't fully bilingual, speaking English is a chore for them, they were prepared to do it out of politeness at first but now they just want to relax and chat so they speak Mandarin。 Perhaps they speak English all day at work and this is their only down time to chat with friends and be completely relaxed. Please don't misunderstand, I'm not blaming you at all, in fact it's entirely possible that even if you had learned Mandarin you would always just be a bit of a “talking monkey.”

 

Also, in tight knit groups anything that singles you out can be used against you. It is always disappointing to see how much like children adults can be. This kind of exclusion is deeply hurtful and my heart goes out to you guys. 

 

As you live in a small town it may be hard to find anywhere else for your wife to socialise. If she had any particularly close friends in the group then maybe she could arrange to see them separately outside of the group. It's unlikely that everyone is against you but they may not be willing to challenge the majority opinion when the rest are present. 

 

Consider learning a little Mandarin. This could really come in useful and most Chinese people really love it when a non-Chinese makes the effort to learn their language. Keep in mind that, counter intuitively, some spouses don't like this, as you met "in English" that is how they know you and knowing you "in Mandarin" is a whole new concept and kind of unsettling. This is something the both of you will have to decide upon. BUT only do it if you actually want to, I think there are too many people learning Mandarin because they feel obligated but it just makes them hate it more, which makes them hate learning it, which makes them worse at it, which makes them hate it more....see where I'm going with this :/

 

I wish you all the best. This is no ones fault but those snooty possibly racist cliquey so and so's. I hope you guys can move on and find better people in future. 

[Silent]

 

Has anyone else had similar experiences with Chinese American Societies or social groups of any kind?

Of course there is a fair bit of interpretation from my side in it, but if I read your story you just don't fit in. In every group the people not fitting in will be excluded.

 

You're the only one there not knowing Chinese and as far as I can judge from your story never made an effort to learn. At the start they were considerate but as you don't show any sign of adaptation why should they maintain there best behaviour towards you? Social interaction should be a two way street. Basically you're just a welfare case to them.

 

Your wife apparently doesn't like the conversations going on over there so she also doesn't fit in that well. So I wonder what's the point of going there? I'ld say cut it and find people you like to socialize with.

[renzhe]

I have no idea why you stopped getting invited to these parties, it could be a number of things.

But it is completely normal that people prefer using their mother tongue among themselves. It is normal that they prefer reading and watching materials in their mother tongue, and for emigrants, it plays an important role of keeping them in touch with their culture, as well as meeting people from their own cultural circle, where they can live out that aspect of their identity.

It is also completely normal that people offer to translate for you in the beginning, but grow tired of it. I'm afraid nobody is going to translate for 9 years.

None of this has to indicate any racism.

[Wang7]

DavidCarl;

 

Well, not trying to sound harsh, but if one were to judge you by the title of your post (Chinese American Society and White Husbands) you have not fully realized that we are all part of this enormous global village, online and in real time. And by no means am I saying that you are a racist, but hey, Asians, especially East Asians, marry people regardless of gender from all parts of the globe.  No longer does the notion of "us and them" work because we are so interconnected. Yes, Chinese Americans are still principled by Confucian thought, but in my experience they are most generous, and welcoming when an outsider embraces their language and culture.

 

It seems like you are a very caring individual who loves his wife very much. And if I were to suggest anything to you it would be to invest money and time enrolled in a Mandarin course (online or at a local community college). I am sure your wife would enjoy helping you with your assignments and its a great way to further show your love and appreciation for her.  Good luck. 

[Demonic_Duck]

Above posts nailed it, I think. Groups which may be very welcoming to an "outsider" at first are liable to become much less welcoming if it turns out the outsider makes no effort to adapt.

 

Having said that, there could well be other "political" reasons (as in in-group politics) for why you and your wife were excluded, I couldn't begin to guess at what they might be. But I could say with almost total certainty that it has nothing to do with your race per se.

[889]

Did you and your wife ever invite the group over to your place at Christmas or New Years? Sometimes people get excluded from social affairs simply because they don't recognise there's a necessary element of reciprocity involved.

Of course there's also the Taiwan/Mainland divide here.

Then there's the telling fact that after nine years, your wife apparently doesn't have a close enough relationship with anyone in the group to find out, in a very Chinese way, what's gone wrong.

But it does seem that over time, your wife had come to dislike the constant chatter of kids and cars. It's not really possible to disguise that dislike for long, and it's reasonable to suspect the others ultimately caught on.

So many other possibilities as well.

It hurts and hurts a lot, but I'd probably be inclined to move on and start attending a different church. Learning Chinese would be an interesting endeavour, but I wouldn't start it just to salvage this situation. That ship has sailed.

[maomao2014]

It is nothing do to with discrimination.

 

Chinese old saying 物以类聚，人以群分（Birds of a feather flock together）

 

If you wife doesn't feel like they are truly her friend, and does not like the competitive and comparing topics, just quit. 

 

BTW I am Chinese and my husband is English. He has passed HSK5, but  I still do not like to take him to meet my Chinese friends. If my husband were Chinese, I also wouldn't take him to meet my friends. Purely because I need some private time with my friends and talk about some private topics or just have fun. It is nothing to do with his race.

[Bad Cao Cao]

"There are two other mixed couples in the group, but their husbands never attend much." 

 

-Associate more with these couples, to the exclusion of the main group, and try to expand these types of groups.

 

-Let your wife attend the main group, alone, like the other mixed couple partners do.

 

-Never show up to a party and sit and read a book to the exclusion of the social gathering. 

 

-Learn mandarin, and create your own meet up groups out of that.

 

-If you do learn mandarin, don't expect to ever get to a level where you will not be a burden on a mandarin only conversation of native speakers. 

 

-Have more group meet ups that aren't Chinese/Mandarin. Allow your wife social opportunities to get out of an expat bubble. Do a new social "30-day challenge", every month.

[hedwards]

I think that whereas in the past interracial marriage was a problem in China, it's not really the problem it used to be. I had the same sort of following for being foreign and exotic as we often do in the US. I got many offers for marriage or to be set up, so I don't think it's much of an issue any more. At least not if you're a good looking and kind hearted person. Perhaps for ugly, unpleasent people that may not be the case. With varying degrees  of ease in between. This is an issue that comes up increasingly in most societies. There are probably a few where it's sufficiently rare that they haven't yet come to grips with it, but they probably will eventually.

 

Anyways, if the group isn't good for her, then definitely don't keep going. Keep trying to find some place where she can relax a bit and keep in touch with the old country, but realize that spending too much time in those expat bubbles can cause a lot of problems. If you haven't already done it, consider going to the Chinese Consulate page and see if they have any affiliated groups or get togethers scheduled. Consulate staff aren't on duty all the time, so there's going to be some place that they go during their off hours to hang out or just relax. That's probably a good place to start looking.

 

As far as communication goes, it's always going to be easier to express things in ones native language if one hasn't already gotten used to saying it in the new language. There's lots of ways of dealing with that, but I'd hesitate to recommend falling back to Chinese as there are going to be times when no Chinese speakers are around to help out.

 

If possible, I'd recommend considering some sort of a schedule where a day or two a week you keep it in English for everything. The point of it is that because it's the entire day, you don't know what's going to happen. There won't be any ambiguity about what language to use. If something comes up that she really can't say, then just capture it in Chinese and later on figure out how to say it. Over time it should get easier and easier as those problems come up less and less frequently.

[Meng Lelan]

Yes, as a Euro Caucasian coming back from China with three young children (I am a single parent) I started going to a Chinese church for a while and it started out ok but over time the kids there got into bullying and hitting my kids so we quit going. Really, if you and yours feel uncomfortable there then stop going. Make and find yourselves a better niche for you and yours. I eventually did make my niche among a few Chinese moms but never went back to Chinese churches ever again. 

[淨土極樂]

I think what went wrong is that you intentionally put your wife into an "expat bubble". Yes, it's completely fine for a Chinese immigrant to make friends with other Chinese, but when they're their only friends, things get ugly. Does your wife consider herself a Canadian after a decade of having the citizenship? Why do you think it is so?

 

If her relationships with other Chinese immigrants are toxic, then just cut the ties, and encourage her to make some new friends, no matter the race. Race really shouldn't be an issue. The hobbies, mutual interests, etc should be the focal point. Your wife doesn't like the competitive nature of other Chinese women, then what's the point of continuing to hang out with them? Just because they're Chinese? We really need to put the race issue aside.

 

As for other posters suggesting you learn Mandarin. Sure, it could be fun to learn some phrases, but that's probably all the OP can do realistically at his age.

[Guest DavidCarl]

Thank you for all your comments. I never expected to get so many. This has been very helpful to open the conversation between my wife and I.

Since we read your comments she has shared more about the relationships with her friends. She explained it to me like this. Please forgive me if this sounds offensive, it is not intended to be.

She told me that in a Chinese social group and even inside her family everyone is constantly comparing their status of wealth and success compared to their piers. Friendships are often based on someone having the ability to give you a step up the ladder. Once you have what you want from that person they are no longer important and you look to the next relationship that benefits you. There is no desire to reciprocate or feelings of loyalty towards someone that helped in a time of need.

In this fashion relationships run there course. Many of her friends in this group were new immigrants we helped out with basic needs such as moving into a new home, transportation, babysitting kids, and so on. Once they established themselves and got to know more people in the group we were less important to them.

This sounded very strange to me. I acted out of friendship because I liked them and I was interested in getting to know them as long term friends. I had no expectation of anything else.

My wife told me she always new this would be the result but had hoped it might be different then what she had experienced in her life in China. Even within her own family members she has helped financially will avoid her for fear that she might ask them to return the favor.

This is truly a foreign concept to me.

[jbradfor]

Sounds like you need to meet new friends.  Just because the church group is Chinese doesn't mean all Chinese will get along with them, no more than you might or might not get along with some random group of Caucasians.

 

I'm guessing your wife is not very traditional, between divorcing her husband while pregnant and marrying you.  You need to look for non-traditional Asians.  While many Asians do have the traits you describe, not all do.

 

You mention you drove up to Vancouver; if you live near Seattle or Portland, there are no lack of other Asians around.  And no lack of white-men / asian-female couples either :-)

 

I'm also guessing you are significantly (>10 years) older than your wife.  This will also make it harder for many Asians to accept you.

 

Lastly, and I could be wrong about this, but I get the impression that you have not made a strong effort to learn Chinese culture.  IMHO, learning Chinese culture would be more beneficial to finding Chinese friends than any language learning you could do in the next 5 years. 

[hedwards]

@12, he can definitely learn, there's folks like Moses McCormick that still actively learn new languages well into retirement age. I'm not sure exactly how old the OP is, but if he's been married a combined length of 26ish years, he's probably in his 40s or 50s, which is way too young to be giving up on the possibility of learning any form of Chinese well.

 

Learning a phrase here and there would make a huge difference and not require much work or natural intelligence. But, over time, it adds up to a huge amount. Plus, even just trying is likely to improve relations with the missus.

 

Other than that, I think more or less spot on. I just felt the need to respond because too many people have bought into the myth that language ability is somehow impaired with age. It generally isn't, as long as one is taking care of ones brain and has generally good health.

[Demonic_Duck]

Friendships are often based on someone having the ability to give you a step up the ladder. Once you have what you want from that person they are no longer important and you look to the next relationship that benefits you. There is no desire to reciprocate or feelings of loyalty towards someone that helped in a time of need.

 

I think there's some truth in the fact Chinese people (not sure about Taiwanese, or if there's a North/South divide etc.) tend to be more utilitarian about their friendships, but in my experience this always goes both ways. Sure, there may be an element of "you scratch my back", but having scratched it, I'll always be willing to scratch yours in return. The idea of hiding from reciprocity doesn't seem typically "Chinese" to me, more like "being an asshole", and I think most Chinese people would consider this sort of behaviour shameful.

 

If Chinese society as a whole was based on taking favours and not reciprocating when the time came, people would very quickly learn to stop doing favours for each other altogether. It wouldn't be a sustainable system.

 

As for other posters suggesting you learn Mandarin. Sure, it could be fun to learn some phrases, but that's probably all the OP can do realistically at his age.

 

This is known as "defeatism" . I don't think the OP mentioned his age explicitly, though from the numbers I assume he's at least middle aged. Plenty of people start learning a language in later life and get good results from it. I know a few personally, and on this very forum we have abcdefg, who I seem to remember is in his 60s, and who has attained a very respectable level of Mandarin after a reasonably short period of study (admittedly in-country, but still). There are probably others on the forum who I've forgotten about, too.

 

OP, assuming you're not on your last legs (doesn't sound like it from your posts), there's plenty of time yet!

 

I'm also guessing you are significantly (>10 years) older than your wife.  This will also make it harder for many Asians to accept you.

 

I don't know. The norm in China is for the man in the relationship to be older, sometimes significantly so. Many of my Chinese friends don't see anything wrong with a man being 10, 15 or even 20 years older than his wife, but find it odd when the woman is so much as a couple of years older.

[hedwards]

I don't know. The norm in China is for the man in the relationship to be older, sometimes significantly so. Many of my Chinese friends don't see anything wrong with a man being 10, 15 or even 20 years older than his wife, but find it odd when the wife is so much as a couple of years older.

 

I hadn't thought about that, but that doesn't surprise me. Saving the money necessary to buy the customary items that people buy before getting married can take some time to accrue. Not to mention that older people are viewed more favorably in China than in some other parts of the world. It seems to me that an age gap is in some ways even less of a big deal if you're talking about marriages between Chinese and foreigners as the shared culture that would normally make it hard to relate to is not there regardless of age difference.

 

I do wonder if that's going to be a trend that continues though. I've got a friend in China that I've known for a few years now and she still considers herself too young to get married, so who knows what's going to happen as more money comes into the picture and people don't have to get married so young.

[renzhe]

She told me that in a Chinese social group and even inside her family everyone is constantly comparing their status of wealth and success compared to their piers. Friendships are often based on someone having the ability to give you a step up the ladder. Once you have what you want from that person they are no longer important and you look to the next relationship that benefits you. There is no desire to reciprocate or feelings of loyalty towards someone that helped in a time of need.

In this fashion relationships run there course. Many of her friends in this group were new immigrants we helped out with basic needs such as moving into a new home, transportation, babysitting kids, and so on. Once they established themselves and got to know more people in the group we were less important to them.

This sounded very strange to me. I acted out of friendship because I liked them and I was interested in getting to know them as long term friends. I had no expectation of anything else.

It's not an either-or thing, though.

Chinese society is notorious for the "relationship" aspect and having to know the right people, but there is plenty of real, life-long friendship too.

Perhaps the people you met and the places you met them were not optimal for finding real friendship.

[bande]

I would try shopping different chinese churches. A bigger one might have a more hospitable atmosphere. We have also seen this problem to a smaller extent in English language churches. I know that we can expect church to be a utopian place, but it can disappoint just like any other institution. Also, if she is interested, some time in an English language bible study might be helpful.

[johnk]

Hi,

My former Chinese teacher is heavily involved in organizing a Chinese Cultural Society in the town where she lives here in the UK. She occasionally ropes me in to do some fetching and carrying for their meetings. So I see some of this.

 

The competitive thing is common among new immigrants. These people have made a huge change to their lives and they often need to reassure themselves that they made the right choice. It is not just a Chinese thing. The BBC had a comedy series Goodness Gracious Me set in the Indian community in Britian. There was a regular sketch involving two Indian mothers who scored points off each other by boasting of their childrens' achievements.

 

The meetings my teacher organizes are usually attended by about 50 families. Most are all Chinese. There are a few caucasian husbands but most speak Chinese. My teacher's husband is English and doesn't speak Chinese. He is a bit like you, he is left out of the conversations and spends most of the time playing with their child or talking to me. Occasionally he just drops her and the child off and I bring them home. I guess he is a bit cheesed off with it sometimes. 

My teacher speaks perfect English, she has a professional job and she is quite confident with wide circles of friends both English and Chinese. I suspect that having a mute/deaf husband in tow is a downer for one of these Chinese meetings and it may be the reason the group has gone 'cold' on you (and your wife).

So is your wife confident enough to go to these meetings alone? Does she even want to anymore? There is something to be said for partners having differing social circles.

Building friendships is an art, it is something you have to work on. Of course if the 'friends' really aren't friends you should drop them and find new one.