"we" is not enough, learn 咱们

[Outofin]

咱们 we, including the person you speak to

我们 we, excluding the person you speak to

Using two different words is absolutely necessary. Imagine the scenario, two people coming into my office say, "The manager said we need to work on the weekend." The sentence doesn't provide the critical information whether I need to work tomorrow.

The word 咱们 is only found in some Chinese dialects. Some of my college classmates from other provinces always talked to me using "我们班". That made me feel "huh? Am I not part of the class?"

[ala]

咱们 we' date=' including the person you speak to

我们 we, excluding the person you speak to

Using two different words is absolutely necessary. Imagine the scenario, two people coming into my office say, "The manager said we need to work on the weekend." The sentence doesn't provide the critical information whether I need to work tomorrow.

The word 咱们 is only found in some Chinese dialects. Some of my college classmates from other provinces always talked to me using "我们班". That made me feel "huh? Am I not part of the class?"[/quote']

I never use 咱们, just only one 我们 for we. If I really want to stress "we together", then I say 我们一起、我们都 or 大家...

Even though 咱们 is also standard putonghua, it just sounds way too northern 哥们儿 flavored for my taste. To me it is very dialect-like and regional, I hardly ever hear southern Chinese use it.

I like the ambiguity in not specifically saying whether I'm referring to the person I'm speaking to or not. Sometimes you just don't want to be so specific as to put yourself in the same group as the other person; a simple "we" is clear enough, don't really need a "we, yes you are part of our group".

[Altair]

I would love to hear more opinions about this, since I have never figured out what to do about 咱们. It is one of the issues for foreign learners where frankly there is little guidance. I think most of my materials mention 咱们, but don't use it. As a result, I really don't.

Will it provoke giggles if we learn 咱们 and use it with Chinese in Taiwan or Hongkong. What about northern areas that are not really near Beijing, like Nanjing and Xi'an?

If we don't use 咱们 in Beijing and nearby areas, will we be constantly irritating people when we say let's do something and use 我们?

When politicians from Beijing give national speeches in their most "standard" language do they use 咱们?

I think a similar issue for those learning formal American English is whether and how to distinguish between some form of singular and plural "you." In my view, standard formal American English simply uses "you" for both uses, but most speakers throughout the country regulary use two separate forms in speech. Failure to make a distinction in ordinary speech can cause minor friction and occasional confusion.

The problem in the U.S. is that there is no form for plural "you" that is regionally neutral. In the "northern" dialect areas, "you guys" is probably the most used form. In the South, y'all (a contraction of "you all") is the most common.

My advice to the average learner of American English with no regional preference and no idea of would be to make no distinction in formal use, but to cultivate in their speech a difference between "you" for singular and "you all" (not "y'all) for use with nothing else in the sentence makes the plural meaning clear. An alternative would be work-arounds like a waiter distinguishing between "Did you like your meal" (Taken as singular) and "Did you and your companion (s) like your meal?."

[Outofin]

f we don't use 咱们 in Beijing and nearby areas, will we be constantly irritating people when we say let's do something and use 我们?

That's totally okay. But like I've said, I probably need half a second to translate it in my brain.

When politicians from Beijing give national speeches in their most "standard" language do they use 咱们?

I guess they don't. Yes, we can live without 咱们. But using the word makes some natives feel you're really one of them.

[ala]

Will it provoke giggles if we learn 咱们 and use it with Chinese in Taiwan or Hongkong. What about northern areas that are not really near Beijing, like Nanjing and Xi'an?

I'm pretty sure Nanjingers don't use it. I also hardly hear it in Shanghai. We learn it in schools though, but then forget about it never use it again. In a way it's kind of like "shall" in American English.

[nipponman]

The problem in the U.S. is that there is no form for plural "you" that is regionally neutral. In the "northern" dialect areas, "you guys" is probably the most used form. In the South, y'all (a contraction of "you all") is the most common.

Yes I remember learning about this dilema in school. English used to have 4 pronouns for you, thee, thou, ye, you. All were used differently. But as far as I know, english hasn't had a plural second person pronoun ever. Also, Y'all is more widespread than "you guys", thanks to ebonics . Others include (beware, pittsburgese) yince, yunse, yunz. All of those are nonstandard English.

nipponman

[roddy]

But as far as I know, english hasn't had a plural second person pronoun ever

看看.

I'm not sure how common it is in the US, but I remember using it as a kid (in Scotland), although it wasn't 'proper' English, and if you wrote it in an essay or something it would have got a red pen through it.

I think even now I might say something like 'youse guys' occassionally - I'll start listening to myself more.

I use 咱们 occassionally, but as it falls under 'sometimes right', while 我们 is 'always right', I've generally just stuck with 我们。

Roddy

[wushijiao]

like the ambiguity in not specifically saying whether I'm referring to the person I'm speaking to or not. Sometimes you just don't want to be so specific as to put yourself in the same group as the other person; a simple "we" is clear enough, don't really need a "we, yes you are part of our group".

This is an interesting way to put it.

In Shanghai, at the restaurant Dongbeiren 东北人 they have a sign as you go out that says, "欢迎你下次来咱们家！" or something like that. I got the impression that in that case 咱们 was used along with the protraits of corn and Mao, to give Shanghaiese an exotic flavor.

I fully support y'all or youse, or yous. My Spanish teacher used to translate sentnces using vosotros into y'all, giving it a more proper or academic connotation to me. In a similar way, in order to clear up confusion in spoken Chinese caused by 他 and 她, I've invented the imporved pronunciations of "hta" and "shta", both in the first tone. "Hta" is simply "he" + "ta", and "shta" is "she" + "ta". Maybe you can help me spread this usage so that it's spoken by more people than just me and my wife.

[Outofin]

I've invented the imporved pronunciations of "hta" and "shta", both in the first tone. "Hta" is simply "he" + "ta", and "shta" is "she" + "ta". Maybe you can help me spread this usage so that it's spoken by more people than just me and my wife.

Are we in a game of inventing new words? Let's play it!

I found it annoying to say or type "he or she", for not irritating either sexlity. We've reached a point that we must invent a new word for it! How about "shhe"?

[Jose]

English used to have 4 pronouns for you, thee, thou, ye, you. All were used differently. But as far as I know, english hasn't had a plural second person pronoun ever.

I think "ye" and "you" were originally plural, while "thou" and "thee" were singular. From what I've been told, it seems that the confusion arose when the plural "you" (not sure about "ye") began to be used as a respectful singular form in much the same way as "vous" in French or "vos" in old Spanish (originally plural pronouns) ended up being used as a respectful way to address just one person. "You" eventually ousted all the other three forms., which is quite remarkable. It would be like Spanish "os" or German "euch" replacing the other far more common 2nd person pronouns. Not sure what the psychology behind such linguistic changes may be.

Going back to the original topic, I'm also quite confused about whether I should use zanmen or not. I've heard some Chinese people describe the word as "dialect" ("fangyan"), while others claim that it is standard putonghua, which makes sense since the standard is broadly based on Beijing speech.

It looks as if there isn't widespread agreement on how standard the word (and the women - zanmen distinction) is. Northeners tend to say it is standard, while southerners see it as an purely northern term.

[msittig]

Before I read wushijiao's post, I too intended to mention the Dongbeiren chain of restaurants in Shanghai too, which labels pretty much *everything* in the restaurant with 咱们, in order to over-emphasize how Northern the restaurant is.

Here's the deck of cards I got for having my birthday dinner there last year:

Since I'm in Shanghai, I never use 咱们, but come to think of it I never managed to when I lived in Tianjin, either. It would probably be a nice touch, though.

[shibo77]

Like Outofin said

咱们zan2men5 inclusive

我们wo3men5 exclusive

But 我们 is always right. 咱们 isn't standard and I think it has something to do with Manchurian. Also when I talk with my buddies, we often use 咱zan2 by itself.

We also use 俺an3(an2) and 俺们an3(an2men5) occasionally to sound bossy. I think both are exclusive.

-Shìbó

[ala]

This is an interesting way to put it.

In Shanghai' date=' at the restaurant Dongbeiren 东北人 they have a sign as you go out that says, "欢迎你下次来咱们家！" or something like that. I got the impression that in that case 咱们 was used along with the protraits of corn and Mao, to give Shanghaiese an exotic flavor.[/quote']

Yeah, I can't help but think of the "Road to Home"-like setting when I hear the word 咱们. People in Shanghai just don't use it. It may be because 阿拉 (I/we) in Shanghainese is just so dominant that we can't imagine separating the "we" into "you-we" and "we-we".

in order to clear up confusion in spoken Chinese caused by 他 and 她, I've invented the imporved pronunciations of "hta" and "shta", both in the first tone. "Hta" is simply "he" + "ta", and "shta" is "she" + "ta". Maybe you can help me spread this usage so that it's spoken by more people than just me and my wife.

In Shanghainese, the he/she/it (伊, [ ji], voiced approximant) can be spelled hi/yi/ri hehe.

[Glenn]

Are we in a game of inventing new words? Let's play it!

I found it annoying to say or type "he or she"' date=' for not irritating either sexlity. We've reached a point that we must invent a new word for it! How about "shhe"?[/quote']

I had this list a while ago.