Measure Words and na4/nei4 zhe4/zhei4

[TCcookie]

My grammar books say that the demonstrative na4/nei4 zhe4/zhei4 (sorry, at work; no characters) always come with a measure word, but I have seen many cases where the measure word is omitted.

When is it appropriate to use these demonstratives without measure words, and when do they absolutely require measure words?

[nipponman]

Maybe you might wanna reread your text book. Because when 那/這 have indefinite reference, a measure word would be inappropriate. For example: 那是我的新書 "That is my new book." But when 那/這 act as modifiers a measure word is usually required. E.g.

那本書很新 "that book is new." 那 in this case is modifying 書, and therefore requires a measure word. But when 那 is not modifying anything, then you can't use a measure word.

nipponman

[TCcookie]

Oh! That makes total sense. Thank you.

[Altair]

In addition to what is posted above, it is apparently fairly common to omit meaure words in certain situations. A recent short story I read uses phrases like 这傻子 zhei4 sha3 zi (this fool) and 那狗 nei4 gou3.

Chinese: A Comprehensive Grammar says that the measure word can be omitted after 那 nei4 and 这 zhei4 in colloquial speech and gives the examples of 这年级 zhei4 nian2 ji4 (at this age) and 那事儿 nei4 shir4 (as far as that matter is concerned).

[nipponman]

In addition to what is posted above, it is apparently fairly common to omit meaure words in certain situations. A recent short story I read uses phrases like 这傻子 zhei4 sha3 zi (this fool) and 那狗 nei4 gou3.

Really? Are there any concrete rules for when to omit measure words?

Chinese: A Comprehensive Grammar says that the measure word can be omitted after 那 nei4 and 这 zhei4 in colloquial speech and gives the examples of 这年级 zhei4 nian2 ji4 (at this age) and 那事儿 nei4 shir4 (as far as that matter is concerned).

shouldn't it be ji2级? also, doesn't 年级 mean grade? I don't understand how you could arrive at "at this age".

nipponman

[johnmck]

(sorry, at work; no characters)

I have the same problem at work, IT will not install the IME for chinese as I do not need it for work, so I use a Word macro that allows me to type in pinying and get the character. I then cut and paste from Word. You can get it at the address:

http://www.mandarintools.com/wordinput.html

Regards,

John

[skylee]

In addition to what is posted above, it is apparently fairly common to omit meaure words in certain situations.

Indeed. This reminds me of the film 那山那人那狗 (Postmen in the Mountains). But I don't know about any "concrete rules" of such usage.

[shibo77]

I posted this in the speaking section, here it is:

*(pronunciations in parenthesis are colloquial versions)

这zhe4 this 这些zhe4xie1(zhe4xie5) these

那na4 that 那些na4xie1(na4xie5) those

哪na3 which 哪些na3xie1(na3xie5) which

这zhei4 this one (here) 这些zhei4xie1(zhei4xie5) these ones (here)

那nei4 that one (there) 那些nei4xie1(nei4xie5) those ones (there)

哪nei3 which one (where) 哪些nei3xie1(nei3xie5) which ones (where)

There are no other pronunciations that are correct. They are not interchangeable, 这zhei4, 那nei4, 哪nei3 can never be followed by 一yi1 "one", but it can be followed by plural classifiers, 些xie1, 两liang3...

"哪一些" would be pronounced "na3yi4xie1", and never as "nei3yi4xie1", but most people would use "哪些nei3xie1" instead.

Not really on topic but related, also the pronunciations (probably only in Beijing):

这zher4 here

那nar4 there

哪nar3 where

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那是我的新書 "That is my new book." Here "那 that" is a demonstrative pronoun, it replaces a noun, and requires no classifier because it is not modifying anything.

那本書很新 "That book is new." Here "那 that" is a demonstrative adjective, and requires a classifier(measure word).

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-Shìbó

[Altair]

Really? Are there any concrete rules for when to omit measure words?

Yip and Rimmington give three:

1. in expressions derived from Classical Chinese, which had only a very restricted use of measure words. Yip and Rimmington cite some chengyu or idioms that fit this pattern: 一事无成, 一蟹不如一蟹, 三言两语.

2. when using 一 yi1 "one" with a quadrisyllabic rhythm: 这一问题 zhei4 yi1 wen4 ti2 ("this problem"), 某一特点 mou3 yi1 te4 dian3 ("a certain characteristic"), and 另一要求 ling4 yi1 yao1 qiu2 ("another request/demand"), 哪一方面 nei3 yi1 fang1 mian4 ("Which aspect?")

3, when using 那 nei4 or 这这 in colloquial speech without 一yi1: 这年纪 zhei4 nian2 ji4 ("at this age") and 那事儿 nei4 shir4 ("as far as that matter is concerned").

shouldn't it be ji2级? also, doesn't 年级 mean grade? I don't understand how you could arrive at "at this age".

I used the wrong character for ji4. It should have been 纪, as in 年纪 above.