Is Pleco of any assistance learning how to write by hand?

[Milkybar_Kid]

Hello,

 

I am thinking of purchasing the Pleco Professional Bundle which includes the full-screen handwriting add-on. Does anyone know if this will be useful for learning to write Chinese characters by hand? Are there any other ways that Pleco can be utilised to practice handwriting?

 

At the moment I can read and type Chinese characters but I have never learnt to write by hand. I would now like to start.

 

I know that a subscription to Skritter would probably be more beneficial for learning how to write by hand, however I don't have enough money to purchase both a Skritter subscription and the Pleco package. I really want the Pleco package for all of the goodies that it includes.

 

Will the Pleco package be of any assistance to me?

 

Thanks

[wibr]

In Pleco

1. You get the stroke order for each character as an animation, which can be quite helpful, especially in the beginning

2. You can also set up flashcards to use the handwriting recognition, it's not as nice as Skritter but I think it's ok

 

Another idea would be to use Skritter intensively for a short amount of time (maybe 1-3 months) to get a good introduction to handwriting and then switch to Pleco to save money.

[roddy]

I'd also remember that the motor skills for writing on a phone or tablet (large glass space, using your finger or a stylus) are very different to those for actually being able to write grown-up sized characters on paper, with a pen. For that, I suspect large quantities of paper are still needed. 

[wibr]

While I agree that there is a certain gap to bridge between Skritter and paper, I wouldn't say "large quantities" of paper are needed. I did a lot of Skritter in the beginning and as far as I remember I just needed to write a character a few times on paper and then the difference became negligible. I did use the "raw squigs" mode, though.

[pross]

No, the handwriting recognition function does not teach you how to write characters. Pleco's stroke order diagrams are useful, but this information can be found elsewhere for free.

 

$0.05. If you goal is to write on real paper, then you need to invest in:

 

1) Method: a systematic way of memorising characters.

 

There are two popular component-based methods.

"Remembering Simplified Hanzi" and "Remembering Traditional Hanzi" by Heisig & Richarson (University of Hawaii Press)

"Learning Chinese Characters" by Mathews (Tuttle Publishing)

Not everyone has success with these books. Some people prefer to use rote learning, others people choose to invent their own method.

 

2) Paper: gridded paper is useful in the beginning to ensure even character spacing, but aim to remove the training wheels as soon as you are comfortable.

 

3) Time: lots and lots of it.

 

Good luck.

[laurenth]

You can also set up flashcards to use the handwriting recognition, it's not as nice as Skritter but I think it's ok

 

In a way, Pleco's way is much better because it does not give you any hint or feedback (like Skritter does, even if you turn "raw squigs" on). I use Skritter daily but I try to avoid its writing feature (I use paper or, before I write at all, I make an effort to try to remember the components in my mind) because it encourages cheating, you can't be sure whether you really know your character.

 

One thing: if I want to prevent Pleco from giving feedback when using a "fill in the blanks" type of exercise, I have to select Test Setting > Use builtin input method.

[lechuan]

For sure, if choosing between Pleco and Skritter, Pleco is overall the most useful package (dictionary, reader, flashcards).

 

If you use Pleco flashcards, there's a 字 button that pops up a transparent writing area that you can use for practice. I used that before switching to Skritter.

 

All in all, I really like Skritter's writing mode useful for learning to write new characters and reinforce them conceptually.

 

As for hand writing, I quickly bore if I try and write out the same character over and over again, so instead I started a new textbook series from scratch, this time in characters only, and I am handwriting all the workbook answers for practice.

 

@laurenth, if you don't use the writing feature in Skritter, is there much benefit to using Skritter over Pleco flashcards?

[mikelove]

@laurenth - I was about to suggest that you turn on "Conceal handwriting until done" in Test Settings but then I checked the manual and noticed that for some strange reason it's missing on Android and only on iOS; anyway, thanks to that prompting from your post we'll go ahead and add it in our next Android update. That option prevents the handwriting recognizer from showing you any characters until you tap with two fingers to clear the input box, precisely in order to avoid giving you any unintended hints.

 

But in the meantime "use builtin input method" certainly works as well.

[laurenth]

 

@laurenth, if you don't use the writing feature in Skritter, is much benefit to using Skritter over Pleco flashcards?

 

Good question, and one that I've been  asking myself more and more frequently. There are several Skritter features that - IMHO - are not entirely well designed, for instance the constant feedback when you write on the screen, the artificial distinction between "recalling the tone" and "recalling the pinyin/pronunciation", the fact that I don't understand why there are grades for some question types, ("forgot", "so-so", "got it", "too easy") but not others - and, well, the monthly budget is also an issue: after all, I've paid for Pleco and for some of its extensions once and for all, why should I bother with one more (admitedly reasonable) amount of money? On the other hand, I've been using Skritter for years and have added much personalised information into it, in a way that was probably not intended by the developers of Skritter, e.g. in the "add char mnemonic field", in addition to some mnemomnics that smell of sulphur, I tend to copy/paste words that use the character I'm studying, plus their definition, etymological information, notes such as "Don't confuse 拆 chāi: to tear open, etc. with 折 zhé/ shé/ zhē: to break, etc.". There's a wealth of information in there that I don't want to lose (I'm not aware of any "export" functionality). In addition, as far as I know, I can't create custom fields to enter such information in Pleco.

 

Or can I?

 

Now that I think of it, each time I've said "I can't do this and that with Pleco", Mike Love has stepped in to say: "Actually, you can, you just have to…"  So?

[mikelove]

Custom fields aren't supported yet but are in the works. They're actually quite challenging because we're trying to do more with them than just let you store arbitrary bits of text - we're designing them to also be able to link to media (audio, images, video), sections of databases (so that you could, for example, insert a sound series from Outlier's new character dictionary into a character flashcard), document bookmarks (jump to the place in 三国演义 where you first encountered this particular word), and to support parsing / validation if say you want to store Shanghainese readings in one field and make sure that they're valid Shanghainese. We're not 100% sure we'll ship all of that stuff from day one, but we want to at least accommodate it all in the schema so that it can easily be added later.

[etm001]

 

 

I am thinking of purchasing the Pleco Professional Bundle which includes the full-screen handwriting add-on. Does anyone know if this will be useful for learning to write Chinese characters by hand?

Yes, of course it's useful. The real question is whether it is less effective than using pencil and paper. A quick Google search turned up the following:

 

Effectiveness of Learning Chinese Character Using Tablet Technology

Bad handwriting often results in bad academic performance and discourages students from learning. Tablet technology has given character learning a new form such as writing by fingertip and various selection of background color. Without holding a pen, it is less stress and more intuitive for character-learning children. With certain background color, child seems pay more attention on writing. In this research, we piloted an evaluation to which we investigated whether learning by the tablet features is better than traditional paper-and-pencil learning. A third-year elementary student who is in the age of first learning Chinese characters was employed to this study. Different background color, stroke thickness and writing methods were tested. The results show that no significance between but aesthetics. There are steady stroke, slanted character, ratio and distance. And these aesthetics appear in specific colors strokes and background, thick and thin strokes or by finger and stylus writing.

 

We cannot draw definitive conclusions from a single study - especially one that involved just a single student. That said, at least some researchers have tried to answer this question, and they concluded that there is "...not significant difference between [a tablet and pencil/paper] but aesthetics."

 

In addition to the medium used to write/learn a character (i.e., table vs. pencil/paper), another question is whether there are notable differences in retention when learning characters on a one-off basis, as opposed to learning them as part of a longer, logical train of thought (i.e., when writing a sentences and paragraphs). I don't know the answer to this question (if I had to guess, I would say there's no substantive difference).

 

 

I haven't handwritten a Chinese character in at least a year - like most native speakers, 99% of my textual communication is typed. That said, I do often use the hand writing mode in Pleco (字) when flashcard testing, simply to maintain my 筆劃 skills and/or as a technique to further cement the character in my mind, and I think doing so is effective. That said, the foundation of my current writing ability was established using pencil and paper (as was required by my school).

[AdamD]

You can also set up flashcards to use the handwriting recognition, it's not as nice as Skritter but I think it's ok

 

As laurenth pointed out, Skritter gives you hints all the way through a character and Pleco doesn't. I think Pleco's better for learning to write for that reason.

 

the handwriting recognition function does not teach you how to write characters. Pleco's stroke order diagrams are useful, but this information can be found elsewhere

 

Pleco's stroke order animations help me more than other sources, and having them on my phone (and therefore in my pocket all the time) is invaluable.

 

Also, Pleco's handwriting function suggests characters partly based on your stroke order. If you write a character incorrectly, it might not come up as a suggestion.

 

Nothing beats pencil and paper, but it's not always convenient (I can whip out my phone anywhere), and it doesn't grade you as you go.

 

The real question is whether it is less effective than using pencil and paper.

 

 

I've used both for years. Each helps me in different ways.

[arreke]

I'd also remember that the motor skills for writing on a phone or tablet (large glass space, using your finger or a stylus) are very different to those for actually being able to write grown-up sized characters on paper, with a pen. For that, I suspect large quantities of paper are still needed.

I agree with roddy, writing on digital device and writing on paper are not the same.

One more thing, I stopped using skritter after one day, because practicing writing single words didn't help me, it was not as useful as writing entire sentences. Writing sentences is more practical, because in real life we never write single words, we always write sentences when posting on chinese-forums or chatting with friends. Moreover if you cease using pinyin keyboard on your mobile phone and replace it with handwriting or 笔画，you will never forget how to write characters.

As I said, skritter didn't help me, but 笔画 and 五笔 did, 五笔 helped me to get familiar with character components like 亻，扌 etc., but typing with 五笔 is completely different from writing with a pan.

笔画, on the other hand, is very useful, although it's not easy at the begging, but once you get used to it, you will never forget how to write characters in the right order ))

[stapler]

 

 

 I use Skritter daily but I try to avoid its writing feature because it encourages cheating

 

I don't understand why you have trouble with "cheating" or "too much information" in Skritter's writing mode. With Raw Squigs on, what help are you getting? There are no hints and if you get a stroke wrong, mark the character as wrong. 

 

 

 

I agree with roddy, writing on digital device and writing on paper are not the same.

One more thing, I stopped using skritter after one day, because practicing writing single words didn't help me, it was not as useful as writing entire sentences. Writing sentences is more practical, because in real life we never write single words, we always write sentences when posting on chinese-forums or chatting with friends. Moreover if you cease using pinyin keyboard on your mobile phone and replace it with handwriting or 笔画，you will never forget how to write characters.

 

I agree too that there is a difference between writing on a screen and paper, but only in terms of aesthetics from motor skills (as roddy mentioned). Personally I like to be able to write, but I don't care if I don't write beautifully (my English looks like a 3 year old's too) so I would never waste my time practicing writing on paper for the sake of aesthetics.

 

I use Skritter just to practice single characters. At first I pumped 1000s of words into Skritter, but that just became too time consuming. Now I follow imron's method and mass add, drill, then delete words in pleco flashcards. This combination of separating out handing writing practice from actually remember words has been much more efficient for me. I can write words when I need to, but I don't need to invest ridiculous amounts of time actually writing those words out.

[laurenth]

 

With Raw Squigs on, what help are you getting? There are no hints and if you get a stroke wrong, mark the character as wrong. 

 

I've long used Skritter to study single characters without realising that it's important to have a *clear and complete* image of the character and each of its components in your mind *before* you start writing on the screen. The reason is that, even with "raw squigs" turned on, Skritter gives you feedback after certain strokes and, hence, some crucial information about what to do next to finish writing your character correctly: if one of your strokes is backward, Skritter will tell you; if a stroke is off, it won't let you write it - and it will allow you to try again.  Of course, if you are very disciplined, when Skritter sends such a warning, you should stop writing,  think, and mark your character as wrong anyway, even if you suddenly realise why you were wrong and what you should have written. Unfortunately I'm often lazy or I let my brains take a backseat to rely on muscle memory, so when Skritter sends me such a warning, I'm not sure whether I could have realised myself that my character would have been incorrect. Therefore, I try to force myself to think before I write and, when I can, to use pen and paper before I check whether my character is correct.

 

In any case, I don't always have the opportunity to use paper; when I write on my phone screen, you're right that "raw squigs on" is much better than "raw squigs off".