Humble request for (etymological) assistance

[aak]

Can anyone offer a literal yet sensible translation for the following (the second part of the second canto of Lao-zi's DDK/TTC):

是以聖人處無為之事，

行不言之教﹔

萬物作而弗始，

生而弗有，

為而弗恃，

功成而不居。

夫唯弗居，

是以不去。

Here is a start (FEEL FREE TO EMEND):

Thus indeed the holy [wise] man resides in the ministry of non-action,

conducts wordless teaching;

living/illuminating yet without possessiveness,

serving yet not depending [i.e. looking for benefit or return therefrom]

achieving merit yet without assertion/without dwelling thereupon.

This man alone does not dwell/assert

indeed, because he is not "absent"*

*Being a realised soul, his is ever-present.

[aak]

Can anyone offer a literal yet sensible translation for the following (the second part of the second canto of Lao-zi's DDK/TTC):

是以聖人處無為之事，

行不言之教﹔

萬物作而弗始，

生而弗有，

為而弗恃，

功成而不居。

夫唯弗居，

是以不去。

Here is a start (FEEL FREE TO EMEND):

Thus indeed the holy [wise] man resides in the ministry of non-action,

conducts wordless teaching;

caring for myriad beings yet without originating [any],**

living/illuminating yet without possessiveness,

serving yet not depending [i.e. looking for benefit or return therefrom]

achieving merit yet without assertion/without dwelling thereupon.

This man alone does not dwell/assert

indeed, because he is not "absent"*

*Being a realised soul, his is ever-present.

**Missed in earlier post

[aak]

Or at the end:

夫唯弗居，

是以不去。

[As] this man alone does not dwell [on his merit]

that [merit] therefore does not leave him.

Better?

[xixi123]

Can anyone offer a literal yet sensible translation for the following (the second part of the second canto of Lao-zi's DDK/TTC):

是以聖人處無為之事，

行不言之教﹔

萬物作而弗始，

生而弗有，

為而弗恃，

功成而不居。

夫唯弗居，

是以不去。

my favorite interpolation is by Lin Yutang:

Therefore the Sage:

Manages affairs without action;

Preaches the doctrine without words;

All things take their rise' date=' but he does not turn away from them;

He gives them life, but does not take possession of them;

He acts, but does not appropriate;

Accomplishes, but claims no credit.

It is because he lays claim to no credit

That the credit cannot be taken away from him.

anyway u can find more translations from this site:

[url']http://www.geocities.com/onkellotus/TTK/_IndexTTK.html[/url]

[aak]

He gives them life

Thanks for both Lin Yutang's interpolation and the link.

While I enjoy and respect his scholarship, his interpretation in certain instances leaves me to wonder.

I fully agree with "All things take their rise, but he does not turn away from them; " yet find it difficult to understand the reason for his translation of 萬物作而弗始 as just that etymologically What other meaning does 始 have than to start? Then how does it become "to turn away"? And how to justify "He gives them life" except in the Socratic sense of midwifery and in the universal sense of participation of the endless creation?

If you can help me here etymologically, it were indeed a great boon and most appreciated!

[xixi123]

well, actually the original one should be 萬物作焉而不辭 or 萬物昔而弗始

so i think Lin just chose the first version

and for the meaning of 生

in ancient chinese, it also means to give birth to , to produce

or better to say, in this case, 生means使之生, make it alive

i am not sure if the answer goes in an etymological way, anyway, hope it would help u to understand.

[xixi123]

ps, i guess i might misunderstand ur second question....

well, in this case, 生 means more likely to breed, to help to live, to give the environment to develop.....

and i found the italian translation might be better to understand:

Per questo il santo permane nel mestiere del non agire e attua l'insegnamento non detto.

Le diecimila creature(well, pls skip this ten thousand, heheh) sorgono ed egli non le rifiuta le fa vivere ma non le considera come sue, opera ma nulla si aspetta.

Compiuta l'opera egli non rimane e proprio perché non rimane non gli vien tolto.

[aak]

sorgono ed egli non le rifiuta le fa vivere ma non le considera come sue[/i'].

This is why I used the word "caring for myriad beings yet without originating [any]". What follows then might be "illuminating yet without possessiveness". For the master sage leads one into Wisdom Consciousness by forming the subtle wisdom body and giving that soul birth into a higher dimension.

If the text is 萬物作焉而不辭 --which, unfortunately, I hadn't in my copy--, then Lin Yutang's translation is perfect in that sense. If 萬物昔而弗始, then we have the sense that "myriad creatures end/go into night but [he, the sage] does not engage therein", meaning he is beyond karma, cause and effect.

I am profoundly endebted to you for this help.

[zhwj]

This might illuminate some of the etymology behind 始. Lin Yutang seems to have taken the original text in 王弼 and others reading 辞 and not connected it with 治, for which 始 is a borrowed character. Hence a mistaken "leave" rather than "govern".

Note that they're using a reconstructed text that might be at odds with the one you are using (Their first line of chapter 1 is 道，可道也？非恒道也？名，可名也？非恒名也？ so take that as you will).

Here's a modern Chinese translation for reference.

[aak]

道，可道也？非恒道也？名，可名也？非恒名也？

If it can be meant thereby: "The Dao, need it not also be other than the permanent Dao [is]? The Name, need it not also be other than the permanent Name [is]?", I am in complete agreement. For these both must exist at all levels, manifest and otherwise, within the process of "under-heaven" evolution as well as perfected and beyond that plane.

However, I should like not so much mental games and second-guessing, as to first come upon a proper, if not the earliest text. I fear, we shall have to wait cyber-aeons before the slips of the 周口店 slip into Internet availability that we may better catch their evasive meanings.

[Altair]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zhwj

道，可道也？非恒道也？名，可名也？非恒名也？

If it can be meant thereby: "The Dao, need it not also be other than the permanent Dao [is]? The Name, need it not also be other than the permanent Name [is]?"

I frankly do not understand why the question marks have been added to the quoted Chinese text; however, can it not be interpreted in a way similar to the traditional translations? One possibility might be: "Dao, if it can be uttered, is not eternal Dao. Names, if they can be named, are not eternal names."