Getting started typing Pinyin

[dbrown4]

Hi,

 

I'm getting started with Chinese, still getting my bearings, and having learned some basic reading, writing (on paper) and pronounciation, I'd like to figure out the most appropriate way for me to learn to type it.

 

I looked at the different traditional Chinese input methods and I think pinyin is the one best suited for me. However, when working with pinyin I'm not fully understanding the numbers that appear after the letter.

 

For example the character 人, all resources suggest that the pinyin for this is "ren2" e.g. http://www.hanzicraft.com/character/%E4%BA%BA

 

and my understanding is that the 2 is the tone, so it is heavily linked to the pronunciation; it should always be ren2.

 

But if I enable pinyin on my computer, to reproduce this character I type "ren", and then a selection of candidates appear, and the 人 is candidate 1. So I have to type ren1 to get what the dictionary says is ren2.

 

I have a feeling that the pinyin input software is dynamically adjusting the candidates based on the frequency of what I type, its trying to be intelligent, and I think it is designed so that I can type a whole sentence without the tone numbers and it will intelligently present the most likely candidates.

 

As a beginner, should I embrace this intelligent input system, or should I instead look for an input system that honors what the dictionary says?

 

I think this is question is generic, but if it matters, I'm using ibus-libpinyin on Linux but I also found similar results with fcitx-sunpinyin.

 

Thanks for any input

[xiaokaka]

Pinyin input methods ignore the tones (for convenience of input) and the alternatives are based on frequency and previous usage. So if you type ren maybe, for example 人，认，任 and 忍 will appear, 人 which is rén，认 rèn，任 rèn and 忍 rěn.

[Lu]

I have a feeling that the pinyin input software is dynamically adjusting the candidates based on the frequency of what I type, its trying to be intelligent, and I think it is designed so that I can type a whole sentence without the tone numbers and it will intelligently present the most likely candidates.

Your feeling is correct! I think you'll find the system quite convenient.

 

And yes, you need to embrace it. Not just because most pinyin-based input systems work like this, but also because it's not possible to have a system where input number matches tone, because of the many homophones. Consider 南 (nán, south) and 男 (nán, male). Both have the exact same tone, so which should appear when you type nan-2? There are many, many, many such homophones in Chinese (open a dictionary at yi or shi to find a bunch), so the most convenient way is to order them by frequency.

 

You need to separate input number from tone, the former is not a way to learn or remember the latter.

 

If you'd like to type using tones, you can consider learning Zhuyin Fuhao (bopomofo). The downside of this is that most keyboards outside of Taiwan don't have it, so you need to either write the characters on your keyboard somehow or type blind, which isn't ideal.

 

For example the character 人, all resources suggest that the pinyin for this is "ren2"

Actually, that's not right. It's not 'ren2', it's 'rén'. Typing numbers is for people who can't be bothered (or are genuinely unable) to type tone marks. Any serious learning website should know better than to write numbers to indicate tones. Look at Line to see how it's done. If you'd like to type the tones (Sān mín zhǔyì instead of San1 min2 zhu3yi4), download Pinyinput, it's great.

[Johnny20270]

That brings back memories,  I had the same feeling when I started. Its not actually much of a problem and most systems (even the microsoft are quite smart) to suggest an appropriate character. I never type tone numbers, mainly because I forget 
 
Its quite useful to install the Chinese language pack on MS Windows (if you use it) just a WINKEY + space bar to alternate Chinese to English. 
 
Don't forget Tone Sandhi, e.g.Hello = 你好 is pronounced níhǎo (not nǐ + hǎo) as many online dictionarys wil show you

[Lu]

Hello = 你好 is pronounced ní hǎo (not nǐ + hǎo) as many online dictionaries wil show you.

You're not supposed to write out the sandhi, so dictionaries that write pinyin correctly will always write nǐ hǎo, since writing ní hǎo is wrong.

 

But I agree, don't forget the tone sandhi. You need those when you speak.

[Johnny20270]

You're not supposed to write out the sandhi, so dictionaries that write pinyin correctly will always write nǐ hǎo, since writing ní hǎo is wrong.

 

 

 

I have always wondered about this, I don't see why not. After all the tone marks are simply there to show you how to pronounce the character, so why not change tone marks (according to tone sandhi) to indicate how the word should be actually be pronounced 

 

So in your example: "since writing ní hǎo is wrong". but then you could argue that those tones marks serve no purpose and are in fact misleading

 

 

Seems sensible to me, but I might not be seeing the big picture here.

[roddy]

You learn 你好 is nǐhaǒ. You know the rules for tone sandhi, so you know the 你 is, in this case, pronounced ní, but that on its own would be pronounced nǐ.

You learn 你好 is níhaǒ. You know the rules for tone sandhi. You have absolutely no way to know how 你 is pronounced without a following third tone.

[Lu]

I was about to answer: because those are the rules of pinyin, but Roddy gives a good reason why that rule actually exists.

[dbrown4]

Thanks for the quick/patient replies, that clears a lot of things up!

[roddy]

Welcome to the site - keep asking questions, we love 'em.

[Demonic_Duck]

I've never found I get confused between tone numbers and numbers in input method lists. The only reason you would want an input method that requires the correct tone (I think they exist, and this might even be configurable as an option on some of the common ones) is if you find yourself having huge difficulties remembering tones. Either way, it will almost certainly slow down your input considerably.

 

Many modern input methods, e.g. Google pinyin, are highly intelligent, giving you lots of options for shortcuts. Much of the time, you don't even have to type full words. For example:

 

bhys = 不好意思

cbd = 差不多

yg = 一个

yguo = 英国

 

What the input method guesses for each character string will indeed depend on your own typing history, but I think even "fresh-out-of-the-box" Google pinyin will be able to guess the ones above.

 

If you required yourself to type out whole syllables with tones (and possibly still having to pick from a dropdown), you'd find yourself taking much longer typing things.

[dwq]

If you configure the Microsoft (Taiwan) Traditional Chinese IME to use pinyin (instead of zhuyin/bopomofo which is the default) you can actually type the tones i.e. ren2 to get a list of characters that are pronounced rén. The IME is very dumb in pinyin mode (some functions like custom dictionaries are only available in zhuyin mode) but it is good for learners typing small amount of text, like turning off auto-correct in word processors for English learners so they can learn to spell correctly themselves.