miguelusque Posted September 9, 2015 at 09:25 PM Report Share Posted September 9, 2015 at 09:25 PM Hi all! I am sorry if this is a very basic question but I have a recurrent doubt about the usage of some Chinese words. In this case, if I search for 'friend' in Pleco dictionary, I can find several words quite related, in this case: 朋友, 朋 and 友. How do I know how to use the correct one? Thanks a lot in advance, Miguel Ángel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stapler Posted September 9, 2015 at 11:23 PM Report Share Posted September 9, 2015 at 11:23 PM In Mandarin neither 朋 nor 友 constitutes a 'word' on its on. They are what is called "bound forms" - characters that only exist as a part of words/characters that arent used on their own. A good dictionary (like the ABC Chinese dictionary) will tell you which characters are words on their own (EG 走, 带, etc) and which aren't (朋，友) etc. If you don't have a good dictionary, the safest way to know what is correct is just imitate the text/speech you encounter. You'll never see a Chinese textbook or speaker refer to a friend as just "朋" 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hofmann Posted September 10, 2015 at 02:39 AM Report Share Posted September 10, 2015 at 02:39 AM Unless they're pretending Mandarin encompasses other languages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miguelusque Posted September 10, 2015 at 07:36 AM Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2015 at 07:36 AM Hi Stapler, I have downloaded the free edition of ABC Chinese Dictionary (Wenlin Institute) and below is the definition for 朋, 友 and 朋友. I would need you to confirm that the sentence 'No common single-syllable words' is the key to know if they are 'bound forms' and because of this reason can only exist as part of words/characters. Thanks again!!! 朋605 朋 [péng] 朋友 péngyǒu friend No common single-syllable words. The character is believed to have depicted two strings of cash, now written like 月 yuè ‘moon’ doubled. Two thousand years ago the seal form was interpreted as the feathers of a fabulous and felicitous bird, the 鹏 péng. 友 371 友 [yǒu] (朋友 péngyǒu) friend; 友好 friendship No single-syllable words in the dictionary for Miǎnfèibǎn (Free Edition). Two hands and 又, joined in friendship. Originally both and 又 looked like . 又 yòu is also phonetic. Compare 有 yǒu ‘have’, 左 zuǒ ‘left’, and 右 yòu ‘right’. 朋友 朋友 péngyou {A} n. ①friend ②boyfriend/girlfriend M:²wèi 位 241.8 [XHPC:437] average occurrences per million characters of text Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XiaoXi Posted September 10, 2015 at 07:42 AM Report Share Posted September 10, 2015 at 07:42 AM Yes so 朋 is part of 朋友 which means friend, it doesn't say either 朋 or 友 mean friend on their own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
889 Posted September 10, 2015 at 07:50 AM Report Share Posted September 10, 2015 at 07:50 AM You can use 好友 as a form of address. And there's the famous classical phrase, 朋自远方来 . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miguelusque Posted September 10, 2015 at 07:57 AM Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2015 at 07:57 AM Hi all, Sorry to ask again, but if I keep on searching the character 友, I can find that it is used by itself, so it seems that the 'bound form' rule does not work here (sorry if I am wrong, just trying to clarify this 'general doubt') The following example is taken from the Line dictionary (click here to read it online) 不过，各位不妨先听我讲述一下年逾七旬、白发苍苍的小宫山和子访友回家后发生的事情。 Búguò, gèwèi bùfáng xiān tīng wǒ jiǎngshù yíxià niányúqīxún 、 báifàcāngcāng de xiǎo gōng shān hé zǐ fǎngyǒu huíjiā hòu fāshēng de shìqing. But listen to what happens when a gray-haired septuagenarian named Kazuko Komiyama returns after visiting friends: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigdumogre Posted September 10, 2015 at 09:38 AM Report Share Posted September 10, 2015 at 09:38 AM In that phrase it's part of the word fǎngyǒu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susu Posted September 10, 2015 at 12:26 PM Report Share Posted September 10, 2015 at 12:26 PM As a general rule, it's helpful to stick to what you hear in normal life and find in your lessons at the beginning, as @stapler said. The danger with dictionaries is that often you just don't know how normal a word is just by looking it up. Thou imaginably might resonate unmitigatedly weirdly You will find the components of common words dotted about in people's names, idioms, longer technical words, and even historical writing/poems. Someone in history may well have used a character creatively... I think that's one of the joys of Chinese! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigdumogre Posted September 10, 2015 at 12:40 PM Report Share Posted September 10, 2015 at 12:40 PM As a general rule, it's helpful to stick to what you hear in normal life and find in your lessons at the beginning, as @stapler said. The danger with dictionaries is that often you just don't know how normal a word is just by looking it up. Thou imaginably might resonate unmitigatedly weirdly You will find the components of common words dotted about in people's names, idioms, longer technical words, and even historical writing/poems. Someone in history may well have used a character creatively... I think that's one of the joys of Chinese! Like the first time I heard da3jiang2you4Kinda confused me at first lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susu Posted September 10, 2015 at 12:51 PM Report Share Posted September 10, 2015 at 12:51 PM Like the first time I heard da3jiang2you4Kinda confused me at first lol 打醬油??! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigdumogre Posted September 10, 2015 at 01:27 PM Report Share Posted September 10, 2015 at 01:27 PM 打醬油??! Yes "To buy soy sauce" or none of my business Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imron Posted September 11, 2015 at 12:06 AM Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 at 12:06 AM Like the first time I heard da3jiang2you4Kinda confused me at first lol Looks like it's still confusing you a little, you've got the tones swapped around It should be dǎ jiàngyóu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stapler Posted September 11, 2015 at 02:17 AM Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 at 02:17 AM I would need you to confirm that the sentence 'No common single-syllable words' is the key to know if they are 'bound forms' and because of this reason can only exist as part of words/characters. Yes, that appears to be so. I use the ABC dictionary in Pleco where it just marks characters with "BF" to indicate bound form. "No common single-syllable words" means the same. As mentioned above, these characters can be used on their own classical or written Chinese, but you probably wont see them used on their own in spoken Mandarin or written vernacular Mandarin unless someone is switching out the vernacular language. But as a beginner you shouldn't worry about that. Also as above, the "友" in 訪友 is "bound" to the 訪友, not sitting on its own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigdumogre Posted September 11, 2015 at 08:59 AM Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 at 08:59 AM Looks like it's still confusing you a little, you've got the tones swapped around It should be dǎ jiàngyóu Thanks whenever I type in the numbers I always mess it up lol. Gotta get a keyboard app Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamille Posted September 13, 2015 at 04:07 AM Report Share Posted September 13, 2015 at 04:07 AM Sorry to ask again, but if I keep on searching the character 友, I can find that it is used by itself, so it seems that the 'bound form' rule does not work here (sorry if I am wrong, just trying to clarify this 'general doubt') You could also find 舊友 as in 新朋舊友. MDBG considers it a word (though not 新朋 or 新朋舊友) but I like to look at it as an adj+noun structure and not just a word. That's the thing with Chinese, since characters have their own grammatical identity but rarely can be used on their own, there often are more then one way to look at a combination. Is it a word or a grammatical structure? There is no real answer set in the stone. This problem is due to the fact that in Ancient Chinese, words composed of two characters like it's the rule nowadays were very few, as they were predominantly composed of only one character. There also is 好友 with the same meaning as 好朋友, that shares the same characteristics as 舊友 : it's usually considered as one word but you can look at it as a combination of two words if you want. But like the others I advise you to not spend too much time on this thought, at least for the moment, and just consider that in Modern Chinese, 朋 and 友 are not words but morphemes. If you want to say "friend", just use 朋友. If you say "我的朋" or "我的友", no one will understand you. Simple as that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lips Posted November 4, 2015 at 01:14 PM Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 at 01:14 PM ...look at it as an adj+noun structure ... As a native speaker that's how I think of it. 朋 and 友 are not commonly used by themselves nowadays but it does not mean they *cannot* be used that way. As mentioned above, 有朋自遠方來 is an example. 音乐之友 (friends of music) is another example. Originally, 同门曰朋，同志曰友。朋 have the same teacher, 友 share the same aspiration or interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamille Posted November 5, 2015 at 03:59 AM Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 at 03:59 AM ...look at it as an adj+noun structure ... Let's not mix the stuff up here: I was saying that 舊友 and 好友 are both adj+noun structures but 朋友 is a noun+noun structure. It's a coordinate (並列) construction of two synonymous characters that were brought together to form a word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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