Pronounciation Question

[nipponman]

Hey again,

This question is about pronounciation. I was watching "Hotel" and I kept hearing things like, so yi instead of suo yi (I don't know if there is much of a difference, like "yi" and "i") and things that seemed slurred, like semme instead of shen me. So basically, is there any rules for appropriate slurring of pronounciation in chinese? Like in Japanese "no" can sometimes become just "n", can similar pronounciation "shifts" (for lack of a better word) occur in chinese? Thanx in advance

nipponman

[skylee]

I remember a member once pointed out that we easily misspelt "pronunciation" ...

[Ah-Bin]

Is "hotel" Taiwanese? Lots of people say "so-yi" there.

Changing tones to neutral tones, like the last characters in xue2sheng1 and gao4su4 I always thought was an instance of sloppiness and slurring, but it appears that that is standardized usage.

Some other Taiwanese Mandarin pronunciations (apart from the obvious sh-s zh-z ch-c) are "fong" for "feng" , "pin" for "ping", "yan" for "yuan" but these are more influence from Southern Min than from "lazy speech". S. Min speakers whose Mandarin has a heavy S. Min accent don't say "f" either so "feng" becomes "hong" and "fang" "huang". Somebody said something to me once in English about "hwace" = "face"!

[nipponman]

Is "hotel" Taiwanese? Lots of people say "so-yi" there.

Changing tones to neutral tones, like the last characters in xue2sheng1 and gao4su4 I always thought was an instance of sloppiness and slurring, but it appears that that is standardized usage.

Some other Taiwanese Mandarin pronunciations (apart from the obvious sh-s zh-z ch-c) are "fong" for "feng" , "pin" for "ping", "yan" for "yuan" but these are more influence from Southern Min than from "lazy speech". S. Min speakers whose Mandarin has a heavy S. Min accent don't say "f" either so "feng" becomes "hong" and "fang" "huang". Somebody said something to me once in English about "hwace" = "face"!

Ha, thanks I think that helps.

I remember a member once pointed out that we easily misspelt "pronunciation" ...

That's true, I always wrestle with the fact that I might be spelling it wrong. The reason I spell it wrong is because no one pronounces it as "pronunciation" but as "pronounciation.

And also, pronounce isn't spelt pronunce. So it can be hard to differentiate.

[waxwing]

The reason I spell it wrong is because no one pronounces it as "pronunciation" but as "pronounciation.

.

I have only ever met one or two people who pronounce "pronunciation" as "pronounciation" and I consider that a sign of poor education' date=' even illiteracy.

I vaguely recall reading that the [i']spelling[/i] "pronounciation" is considered acceptable, but I doubt it.

[Jose]

The difference between -uo and -o is a bit vague. In fact, many native speakers seem to pronounce the syllables "bo", "po", "mo" and "fo" with the same vowel as the one in "duo", "tuo", "nuo", etc. I've never been completely clear as to whether it is more correct to differentiate the vowels in "mo" and "nuo", but, anyway, note that there is no contrastive difference between "-o" and "-uo". In pinyin, there is "bo", but there is no syllable *"buo", while there is "duo", but not *"do". The distribution of "-uo" and "-o" also varies across romanisation systems, which seems to confirm that it is a moot point whether a diphthong or a pure vowel is a better representation for the vowel. For example, the pinyin syllables "luo" and "ruo" are "lo" and "jo" in the older Wade-Giles system. That's why the name of the city of Luoyang used to be spelt Loyang, and the name of the writer Guo Moruo used to be spelt Kuo Mo-jo in Wade-Giles.

So, whether you say a clear diphthong /swo/ or a sort of purer vowel /so/, it will be understood by Chinese speakers as the pinyin syllable suo.

[gato]

The difference between -uo and -o is a bit vague. In fact, many native speakers seem to pronounce the syllables "bo", "po", "mo" and "fo" with the same vowel as the one in "duo", "tuo", "nuo", etc. I've never been completely clear as to whether it is more correct to differentiate the vowels in "mo" and "nuo", but, anyway, note that there is no contrastive difference between "-o" and "-uo".

'b', 'p', 'm', and 'f', standing alone, already have the desired 'bo', 'po', 'mo', 'fo' sounds. The vowell 'o' is probably added just to satisfy the rule that every characer has to have at least one vowell. It's analogous to the words "be" in English; the letter 'b', by itself, already has the desired sound. Adding 'u' before the 'o' in these cases would be like spelling "po" as "pouo". A little confusing, but I suppose if that were the standard, people would get used to it.

'd', 't,' and 'n', standing alone, have an implicit 'e' sound, as in 'de', 'te', and 'ne', which is why the 'u' is needed.

[tigerx9]

I have only ever met one or two people who pronounce "pronunciation" as "pronounciation" and I consider that a sign of poor education' date=' even illiteracy.

I vaguely recall reading that the [i']spelling[/i] "pronounciation" is considered acceptable, but I doubt it.

i've heard both 'pronunciation' and 'pronounciation' commonly being said. when people have a conversation, i don't think people really care much about the it, as long as the meaning is communicated across. it's probably more important to say it properly on the academic level, such as when teaching english. so it could just be a slur, or simply be 'easier' to say 'pronounciation'.

[tigerx9]

i find the tone tend to be more important than the exact pronunciation of the word (*careful* with the spelling there ). getting the tone right - halfway there. slight mis-pronunciation of the word - usually get away with it when the whole sentence is said, and with the context of it, can usually guess the word.

i think it happens with all languages, when colloquially spoken, not always pronounced 100% the way it should be. so perhaps, as in the movie, the dialogue is usually colloquial.

[nipponman]

Originally Posted by waxwing

I have only ever met one or two people who pronounce "pronunciation" as "pronounciation" and I consider that a sign of poor education, even illiteracy.

I vaguely recall reading that the spelling "pronounciation" is considered acceptable, but I doubt it.

Well, in Ebonics, it is definitely pronounciation, not pronunciation. And although ebonics is nonstandard english, it is the english I speak so I can my mistake. Couple that with the other thing I said about the spelling of pronounce and you should not consider it poor education or illiteracy, seeing as I spell 99% of the other words correctly.

Thanks to Jose and the rest for your insights.