Struggling with the second tone

[Andrew78]

Hi, it's four months now I've been studying chinese, but only this month I started to learn for the first time PinYin and tones (before I could only read). I took about 10 lessons via Skype with a native chinese teacher.

 

Now, regardind the tones:

First tone for me is very easy; third tone also can do rather well; forth tone rather easy too, but I'm struggling with the second tone, the one my teacher find most of the times wrong.

I ask you:

1) what is your experience with tones?

2) Which one did you find the most difficult to master?

3) Can you discern the tones when you hear chinese people speak?

4) Are you able to pronounce the tones correctly even when you speak whole sentences?

 

Moreover, I just want to add: when my teacher "assess" me with the four tones in succession, often I can even succed in making them all correct; bigger problem comes when I try to make whole sentences, and then some tones go "missing".

 

Thank you

 

[Flickserve]

1. Read all previous threads especially Tamu's

2. Tone number 1, 2 , 3 and 4 depending on my memory of the words.

3. Yes.

4. That depends on one's expertise or diligence to practice. I would rate myself as OK if I am following a tutors pronunciation but that drops off a lot if I am making a sentence up by myself spontaneously.

[Shelley]

1. Read all previous threads especially Tamu's

 

Confused - do you have a specific thread or just the whole of the forum?

 

Don't mean to sound sarcastic but either I have missed something or I am being a complete dummy.

 

@Andrew78 If you have only been learning tones for a month, don't be too hard on yourself, you will need to put in more time and practice. Listen to as much chinese as you can even if you don't understand everything it can help to "tune" your ear to the sounds of chinese.

 

Just keep practising and listening and it will get better.

[Flickserve]

@Shelley. Re. 1. A lot of people have posted their experiences with tones and pronunciation including myself. I have read most of them.

Here is a subforum if you haven't come across it before.

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/forum/42-chinese-pronunciation-pinyin-and-audio-samples/

[889]

I think it's useful to develop a mental pitchpipe, a reference you can always fall back on to keep your tones in tune.

Of course this should be a word you hear constantly, so it becomes unforgettable, and for second tone I'd suggest 没有; simply picture an exasperated ticket seller telling you for the third time, there are no seats! Then, whenever you have trouble with a second tone, just recall that climbing 没 and imitate it.

Also, study tones in pairs and such, not as individual characters. The differences are more distinct and it better reflects actual usage.

[Hofmann]

The quickest way to solve this is probably for you to post a recording.

[Andrew78]

Thanks everyobody for your answers, here's a very short recordings of my tones:

 

https://soundcloud.com/mu-andeli/tones

 

please tell me what you think

[Hofmann]

Your second tone starts with a falling portion, making it sound like a third tone. You should eliminate it.

 

Here's a spectral pitch display of your recording. You should see that the second syllable you say has a dipping shape like the third syllable.

[889]

You don't need to exaggerate the inflection and shouldn't, unless you're a Chinese opera singer, or an exasperated ticket seller. Instead, work on your tones as you'll speak in normal conversation.

[eddyf]

Yeah, your second tone definitely starts with a falling portion. I heard it right away. That's probably why your teacher says it's wrong. Make sure you can hear it in the recording, then try to eliminate it.

 

My experience with tones is that I learned to pronounce them by going through Pimsleur and trying to imitate the pitch contour of the recordings exactly, as if they were singing a song and I had to sing the exact same thing. By the end of the whole program I felt like it was pretty internalized, including how to use them within sentences. As for learning to discern them, it comes from many hours of listening practice and it's kind of inevitable as your listening comprehension keeps going up. But trust me, you learn to discern them. Anyone who says that native speakers don't really use tones when they speak doesn't have a clue what they are talking about.

 

When dealing with tones you should have a zero-tolerance policy for yourself. ALWAYS say things with the correct tone. If you catch yourself saying it wrong, say it again. Just like if you were talking in English and you accidentally said "bat" instead of "cat", you would correct yourself because if you don't it's just plain wrong. (Unless you want people to majorly misunderstand what kind of pet you have.) And when you hear new words, make sure you know what tone they are. Otherwise you haven't really learned the word. I think with tones you have to be very strict from the start in order to hammer into your brain that they are very important.

[stapler]

Yes your second tone sounds very much like a 3rd tone with the dip. I'm not sure how Italian works, but if it's like English, the tone you need to aim for resembles the tone you make when you ask a question with a lot of exaggeration, almost disbelief. "she's already gone." "really?" - or better yet, just listen to Chinese people answering the phone "wei2?" and remember that feeling!

[realmayo]

One advice I've had for the second tone runs as follows:

 

- Pick the right starting point pitch

- As you rise, crescendo to the top pitch and level off into what is basically the last part of a 1st tone

[Hofmann]

crescendo

I think you meant portamento.

[realmayo]

Nope, crescendo.   

[Hofmann]

Odd. Why?

[realmayo]

Why? To help foreign learners of Chinese to pronounce natural-sounding second tones.

 

Don't think of it as advising that every time you say a second tone you're shouting louder than the rest of the sounds your making for other tones. It's simply that it's natural to emphasise different parts of certain tone contours. You probably swell to put increased emphasis on your second tones without noticing it, because it's natural. Actively try and say a second tone with no change of emphasis and I reckon you end up with a robotic and unnatural sound, like a fallen-over and tilted-at-an-angle first tone. That is the contour that the traditional tone diagrams give but I think if you are too rigid in how you follow the diagram, the tone sounds bad.

[Hofmann]

I don't believe you.

[realmayo]

I'll get over it.

[Demonic_Duck]

Even aside from the contentious idea that 2nd tones should get louder toward the end (they shouldn't as a general rule), I still don't think that's good advice. There should be no "leveling off" at the end of 2nd tones, nor at the end of any other tone.

[realmayo]

Some people derive comfort from straight lines and neat ordered diagrams. Check out tamu's pronunciation/Praat thread to see the difference in real life. But I'm not setting out to try to convince people who are wedded to the traditional chart-based representation of isolated tones. In fact I'm not interested in persuading anyone at all, I'm no expert myself, quite the opposite, & I'm just passing on a piece of advice, from someone who surely knows a great deal more on this topic than anyone on these forums, about one technique which may help foreign learners of Chinese produce a more natural-sounding second tone in normal speech.