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Ian_Lee

Did dynastic China invade and expand?

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Ian_Lee

Did dynastic China invade and expand?

To answer this question, we have to understand the Confucian hierarchy of world order.

On the top, it was the Mandate of Heaven, then there was the China Proper -- the directly ruled 18 provinces (it expanded to 21 provinces after Qing lift the ban and encouraged Hans to settle in Manchuria after 1870s).

Then there was the "Frontier" area -- the various banners in Mongolia, the various tribes in the Northern and Southern routes of Tien Shan (nowadays Xinjiang) and Tibet.

This frontier serves as a buffer to deter from invasion into the China Proper. Sometimes they were under China's orbit and sometimes they fell out.

Then there were the vital tributaries -- Vietnam (Annan in ancient term), Korea and Ryukyu (nowadays Okinawa).

Unlike Holyman said in another post, dynastic China had defended Korea three times at the request of the Korean court. The most famous battle happened in 1592 when Korea faced the invasion of Toyotomi Hideyoshi. Ming launched an army as big as 1 million to aid the Li Dynasty in Korea.

In fact, when Ryukyu Kingdom was annexed by Japan in 1884, their Royal family sought exile in China and asked the Qing Court to revive their kingdom in vain.

For the frontier like Tibet and the northern and southern routes of Tien Shan, all the dynasties just sought minimal governance and left the daily affairs run by the local chiefs.

If those dynasties had colonized those frontier areas in earnest, I am afraid the Uighurs and Tibetans might have become extinct a long time ago!

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holyman

then tell me how many times china had invaded the korean peninsula in chinese history? let me tell u, it started since the time of qin shihuang, some 2200yrs ago. the ming court sided korea simply because korea had by then adopted the chinese way of life, cofucianism and acknowledge the ming emperor as their protector. if they havent done so, if they have been rejecting chinese culture like the mongols, do u think ming china will help them out?

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skylee

Korea had a 事大政策 (serve the great policy) back then.

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Ian_Lee

Holyman:

During the Qin Shihuang period, it was highly doubtful that Korea existed as a state or nation in any historical sense.

Even though Koreans claim that their legendary ancestor Tangun founded the country 5,000 years ago, credible Korean history only started in the Former Three Kingdom period (Around 100 A.D) in Chinese source.

The kingdoms that were believed to exist in the Korean Peninsula before this era like the 3 Hans lacked reliable and tracable history.

The 4 counties that Han Dynasty set up in the northern part of the peninsula were actually set up on tribal land.

The only record that China had invaded was during the late 7th Century when the Second Emperor of Tang invaded Koguryo. But the battles were mostly waged within the boundry of China's present day Liaoning Province.

Afterwards Tang allied with Shilla to defeat Koguryo and Paekche and let Shilla unify Korea.

The city "Pyongyang" was founded by the Tang administration which literally meant "Pacify the territory".

But strictly speaking, the move was not an invasion since Tang allied with a Korean kingdom and intervened at its request.

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Quest

I think the Tang plot was to ally with Silla, conquer Paekche, then defeat Koguryo, their long time menace in the northeast, then turn against Silla and conquer it at last, but they needed to land their troups via a sea route since Silla wasn't connected to Tang China by land. but Silla somehow learned of the plot and the Chinese general gave up the plan for fear that he and his troups couldn't make it back to China and they weren't in a position to take Silla after the Koguryo battles.

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Quest

I do agree China viewed war as taxing and a waste of national resource. so they only expanded as national interests required them. for the most part military meant defense, they did not invade for the sake of conquering the world, or moral codes did not permit the rulers to do so. I think, it was much like what the U.S. is experiencing today. They can do it by means of military and technological power but they can not because the moral codes of the society do not allow such expansions. Also, the people had little interest of the land and cultures outside of China. It's been a dilemma to great powers that wanted to expand but were tied up by their own ideologies and arrogance.

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Ian_Lee

Actually dynastic China's expansion was a natural reaction to the traumatic colonial experience suffered by Northern China in various periods.

Before 1842, dynastic China's enemies were always from the North. Various normadic tribes like Xiong Nu, Xianbe, Khitan, Jurchen, Mongols and Manchus had marauded the Yellow River basin. Northern China had been subjugated as colonies to those tribes for centuries.

So when dynastic China became strong militarily, the emperors would relentlessly pursue security by pre-emptively chasing those northern tribes out as far as possible and transforming those lands into frontier to serve as China Proper's buffer.

The most famous explanation of this strategy was best illustrated in 1880s. After Yakub Beg's revolt in present day Xinjiang in early 1870's, that region had been de facto independent for 13 years. All the mandarins in the Qing Court including top brass Li Hung Chang proposed to leave that region alone and devoted all sources to re-fortify the coastal defense.

But only General Tso Chung Tang held contrary opinion.

Tso said, "Northern and Southern Routes of Tien Shan is the hand while Mongolia is the arm. In order to protect the head (capital -- Beijing), we have to be able to maneuvre the hand thru the arm."

Even Empress Dowager was impressed by Tso and let him lead the expeditionary force to recapture that region.

Russia was surprised by Tso's determination and had to hand back half of the Ili region that the Czar claimed administrating on Qing's behalf.

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Quest

is there any chance China can get back from Russia the strip of land northeast of dongbei? They are lobbying for a lease of a Russian port there.

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ufe3
then tell me how many times china had invaded the korean peninsula in chinese history? let me tell u, it started since the time of qin shihuang, some 2200yrs ago. the ming court sided korea simply because korea had by then adopted the chinese way of life, cofucianism and acknowledge the ming emperor as their protector. if they havent done so, if they have been rejecting chinese culture like the mongols, do u think ming china will help them out?

What you mean? Is Qi Zi (萁子) a invader? or Kingdom Dai (代国)a invader? But why Koreans prefer Centralish way of life, not Monggol? ------if Korean IS a Monggol culture country, the invader would be Korean! not Da Ming !!!! Had DaMing invaded Monggol or Manchu? --In fact DaMing had had the strength to invade all the world!!!

Know these things!

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Guest 北洋大臣

我天朝擴張其國土, 乃名正言順, 大義稟然之舉, 何怪之有?

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Quest
我天朝擴張其國土, 乃名正言順, 大義稟然之舉, 何怪之有?

You are talking like WWII Japanese now.

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Guest 北洋大臣

普天之下莫非皇土, 今皇雖亡, 然中華之心猶在. 天地萬物皆為我華所用, 此言乃為神州之明策

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pazu
普天之下莫非皇土, 今皇雖亡, 然中華之心猶在. 天地萬物皆為我華所用, 此言乃為神州之明策

Oh yes, you'll be the Prime Minister sOOn. :P

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Guest 北洋大臣
普天之下莫非皇土' date=' 今皇雖亡, 然中華之心猶在. 天地萬物皆為我華所用, 此言乃為神州之明策[/quote']

Oh yes, you'll be the Prime Minister sOOn. :P

敝人于此謝君之抬舉. 在下何徳何能以堪此重任. 我心惶恐, 受之有愧焉. 然國家興亡, 匹夫有責, 要是誠如公之言, 有朝一日能擔此救國大任, 吾必赴湯蹈火, 以報祖國之重恩, 以謝人民之重望

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Ian_Lee

China would have a chance to become a truly democratic republic without the "Bei Yang".

If Yuan Shih Kai was not delegated by Empress Dowager to train his personal militia in Tientsin, the Beiyang warlords could not ravage China until 1927.

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Guest 北洋大臣
China would have a chance to become a truly democratic republic without the "Bei Yang".

If Yuan Shih Kai was not delegated by Empress Dowager to train his personal militia in Tientsin' date=' the Beiyang warlords could not ravage China until 1927.[/quote']

Indeed, However without the Beiyang's achievement in later Qing dynasty, China would not be able to modernize

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holyman
During the Qin Shihuang period, it was highly doubtful that Korea existed as a state or nation in any historical sense.

so when europeans came to north america its just too bad the natives got eliminated, right? since they dont have a nation in any historical sense... well maybe the same thing goes with the africans. c'mon, every civilisation in human history tried to expand and conquer, its for 'more survival space' and 'well being of their own race' :wink: , there is nothing to be ashame of to admit it. these are after all history and it bears no implications to ppl like us as a chinese decendants. its only a problem when some try to cover it up and pretend to be harmless and innocent, or find excuses for these actions and actually claimed themselves to be the victim of circumstances.

so the chinese didnt invade the korean peninsula since they didnt form a country yet. my question is simple: who originally lived in the korean peninsula? the koreans or the chinese? same thing proably goes to canton, vietnam, guangxi, yunnan, mogolia, xinjiang, etc.

if we look at the history of han dynasty, han wu di was the ruler that beat up the huns badly. recorded in his own words, the country cannot go on a day without war. what he is doing is just externalising internal problems, change the focus of the commoners from domestic problems or , esp during his later years.

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holyman
我天朝擴張其國土, 乃名正言順, 大義稟然之舉, 何怪之有?

yeah right, thanks for answering the question the thread starter asked.

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holyman
To answer this question, we have to understand the Confucian hierarchy of world order.

ha, that's only for bluffing the commoners. which chinese dynasty actually lived by the confucian theory? even for han dynasty which put confucianism as the official school of thought, is not sticking to it.

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holyman
Tso said, "Northern and Southern Routes of Tien Shan is the hand while Mongolia is the arm. In order to protect the head (capital -- Beijing), we have to be able to maneuvre the hand thru the arm."

and therefore around 1 million muslims were killed when he was the chief of army, which leads to the hatred of the xinjiang muslims towards the chinese up till today. tso's nickname was 'butcher tso' at that time.

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