Old Chinese Land Deed

[Jester]

Hi All,

 

I was wondering if you can help me. I have an old Chinese Land Deed that was passed down by my deceased Grandfather.

 

Would you be to translate the documents attached and let me know exactly what is says word per word?

 

Is there any value to this old land deed?

 

Is this deed still valid?

 

What are the locations of the properties there in?

 

I don't know who my Grandfather's relatives are such as parents, siblings, cousin, aunts and uncles, as he migrated to the Philippines. I would like to know and meet them as I will to going to Hong Kong in a couple of weeks. Maybe if I can get the exact location, I will be able meet some Leong family members there.

 

My Grandfather's Name is: Leong Pak Chan

 

Any information you can provide me from the attached documents would be greatly appreciated!

 

 

Thank you very much!

 

Very Respectfully,

Jester Leong

[skylee]

The older one was signed on the 26th day of the 4th month of 1880. It is about the sale of two pieces of land from a 梁憲忠 to a clansman 梁邦焜. The plots were located at a place called 八甲堡油柑環 and a place called 南洋沙蒔.

The newer one was signed on 24 November 1937. It is about the sale of land from a 鄺修配 to a 梁孔懷. The locations of the land were 八甲堡松山壠尾 and 南洋坡頭灣.

Both buyers' surnames were 梁 (which is sometimes romanised as Leong in HK). Perhaps they were related to your family.

If the places are in Mainland China, these documents are most probably no longer valid after all the wars and revolutions.

PS - if you want a word for word translation (or better translation), consider hiring a professional translator.

[Jester]

Hi Skylee,
I don't understand the Chinese Characters you typed. Could you type it in English please? My Grandfather's name is Leong Pak Chan. Could the locations be in Guanzhou guandong? Could it be valid if it's not in mainland China?

[muyongshi]

Hi Saylee,

I don't understand the Chinese Characters you typed. Could you type it in English please? My Grandfather's name is Leong Pak Chan. Could the locations be in Guanzhou guandong? Could it be valid if it's not in mainland China?

Do you mean type it in pinyin? There is no way to type it in English. Also, pinyin is a different romanization method than what what used back then. For example the surname Leong in pinyin is Liang and I'm pretty sure I've seen it written Leung as well. So even if we used pinyin (for Mandarin Chinese) the names/places wouldn't necessarily make any sense. If it is in south China, there are different romanizations for different languages/dialects so it is kind of a hard thing to do.

I think if you are actually trying to figure out the where this is and who this is you'd need more than a translator. You'd need someone who could research the history of those locations, figure out where they are today and then translate based on the newer names and give you an appropriate romanization for it.

[Flickserve]

Hi Saylee,

I don't understand the Chinese Characters you typed. Could you type it in English please? My Grandfather's name is Leong Pak Chan. Could the locations be in Guanzhou guandong? Could it be valid if it's not in mainland China?

the name Leong is not a standard romanisation.

For the same Chinese character, it might be written as Leong (common in Malaysia), Leung (common from HK), Liang (pinyin). Even same families might write the name differently in romanisation depending on which country they first settled in and how the first registry officer wrote it down. So although you are a Leong in Philippines, your relatives might have different spellings for their surnames (but the Chinese character should be the same).

Can you provide more background? Did your grandfather come from Guangdong? Many Chinese in Philippines are originally from Fujian province. Do you know what dialect of Chinese your grandfather spoke?

[Jester]

I was told my Grandfather lived in Guanzhou Guandong. He was Cantonese.

For clarity, the locations as said on the previous post:

"The plots were located at a place called 八甲堡油柑環 and a place called 南洋沙.The newer one was signed on 24 November 1937. It is about the sale of land from a 鄺修配 to a 梁孔懷. The locations of the land were 八甲堡松山隴 and 南洋坡頭灣."

If these locations aren't in Mainland China, there is still hope the deed is still valid? I was told deed was for land in Hong Kong.

Hopefully, my Grandfather's family members are occupying those lands. I will be going on a trip to Hong Kong in a couple of weeks that was planned strictly for Disneyland and sight seeing, but now that this deed was brought out in the open by my cousin, which nobody knew this deed ever existed, I am more contempt to follow it through till we know where these places are and if can claim what my Grandfather rightfully purchased. As well know our long lost relatives.

If these locations are not on the map? And were renamed?

I guess have to find one that is either old enough to have lived during it was called that or find a historian/expert in Chinese geography.

If what was said

[li3wei1]

Don't get your hopes up. If you do manage to identify the bits of land in question, I doubt that whoever currently occupies them is going to hand them over because someone shows up with a piece of paper signed by a guy who's been dead for a long time. These don't appear to have any stamps, seals, or letterhead, and they're not really deeds, but contracts. Who's to say your Grandfather didn't sell the land on to someone else? And is the line from him to you clear? Was there anything in his will? Did he have other descendants? Do you have unquestionable right to act on behalf of his estate?

 

These are interesting historical documents, and they are especially meaningful to your family, and trying to track down the bits of land would be an interesting project, but don't think of it as money down the back of the sofa, because my guess is you won't get any financial rewards out of it.

[muyongshi]

And if you did hope to get money, you'd need to expect a lengthy court battle with lots to prove that would probably drain any gain even if you win.

[lips]

The second one does not look like a Hong Kong land sale contract from 1937. Hong Kong had been under British rule for some years by then.

[snowflake]

My family did something like this for property in Hong Kong which was owned by my grandfather who passed away about 35 years ago.  The property was inhabited by his children (my aunt) up to the present time.  My mother received money from the sale maybe 5-7 years ago.  If you wish to pursue this then talk to your parents, aunts and uncles about relatives who may still be living in the original location.  

[Publius]

There is a 八甲镇 in Guangdong, around 300km southwest of Guangzhou. And it was indeed called 八甲堡 during the relevant period. But private land ownership is non-existent in mainland China. So no hope there.

南洋 is a term referring to a wide area of Southeast Asia, including Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines, etc. Don't even know where to start looking. Of course it could be a name for a township but I haven't found any information.

[Flickserve]

Back in 1930's, it wasn't uncommon to have two or more wives. If there is any asset claim, it could spread out pretty thin.

[Jester]

Google got the translation I wanted to know.

八甲镇 Bajiazhen/Bajia Town:Eight a town located in the southwest of Yangchun, Guangdong Province, convenient transportation, rich resources and abundant. The town beautiful, charming scenery, is one of the three major tourism scenic Yangchun City.

南洋 Nanyang: is the Chinese name for the warmer and fertile geographical region south of China, otherwise known as the 'South Sea' or Southeast Asia.

I still believe this so-called Land Deed or Contract Agreement is sort of a treasure map. Even if the possibility of claiming the two lands that my Grandfather purchased are zero to none, finding my Grandfather's sibling(if their still alive) and other family members will be a great achievement. It will be a great learning experience to know and to get in touch with our roots. Especially for my Dad's brothers and sisters.

Now the next step is actually finding the exact location of the lot in Bajia Town and Nanyang.

Thank you all for providing information, knowledge and support to this mystery of mine.

V/R,

Jester Leong

[lips]

南洋 in the document was likely just the name of a place near Bajia.

 

There is a 沙莳  near 茂名 Maoming in Guangdong.

[Jester]

As I continue to dig deeper in collecting as much information from these documents, would like to share to you all what I retrieved. I always appreciate all your intellectual responses. Feel free to validate and confirm whether the information provided to me are accurate. As well as answer the questions that came with those collected information.

-The document was during the Qing Dynasty.

-The three names on the document was said are:
1. Leong Kong Huey
2. Leong Sian Rong
3. Leong Ku Fei

As my Grandfather's name( Leong Pak Chan) isn't one of the names listed, probably this document was passed down to him or other scenarios.

-The two properties in or near(Bajiazhen/Bajia Town)& (Nanyang) was acquired for $1,498.50 in 1937.
Question:
1. How much would that those properties be worth today?

2. Are those two locations in Mainland China or Honk Kong?

[skylee]

Two things.

1. The Qing Dynasty was overthrown in 1911. Contrary to what some people might believe today, the administration that followed was the Republic of China. The People's Republic of China was established in 1949.

2. The romanisation in #15 is not standard AFAIK. I doubt anybody could "confirm" such names. That said, the first one sounds like the buyer's name in 1937. The first two syllables of the second one sound like the first syllables of the seller in 1880.

Personally I don't find this very interesting. But I wish the OP good luck.