Listen to sound, not for meaning

[realmayo]

I've started on a new language recently and came across some advice I thought was very interesting: when you're listening to material in the target language, for example a sentence from a textbook mp3:

 

intentionally listen to the sounds, rather than listen for the meaning.

 

If you're trying to work out the meaning, you're not really listening to the sounds. That means you'll be slow at learning how to distinguish sounds in the language. But that's the key listening skill that you really want to prioritise.

 

By telling myself to focus on the sounds, I really do hear them better in the sentence. But it has to be a conscious effort: if I forget to remind myself, I end up 'listening for the meaning' again, which is no good.

 

Of course you do also want to understand, or at least work out the meaning of, the sentence, but it's better to:

a) listen to the sounds, distinguish them clearly, remember what words they represent, and finally work out the meaning of the sentence,

rather than b) listen for the meaning, figure out roughly what's going on, realise what the meaning of the sentence is, but remain unsure of precisely how some of the words are pronounced.

 

The phrases and sentences I'm listening to are in flashcards so I'm hearing them repeatedly over time. That means that their meaning will be in my brain somewhere, because I've heard them several times before. Or they are formed of words and grammar patterns I already know. And so, focusing on the sounds not the meaning, when I get to the end of the sentence, the meaning does indeed 'pop into my head', or rather, my understanding is prompted in large part because I've clearly recognised many of the individual words in the sentence -- and I'm much better able to recognise those individual words because I'm listening for sounds, not meaning. Good advice for beginners, I think. And quite possibly suggested elsewhere here on these forums too?

[edelweis]

At what proficiency level do you find this useful?

[realmayo]

Beginner*. While still learning to distinguish the different sounds of a new language.

The simple change in mindset is making me 'hear' syllables I hadn't realised were there, or changes to sounds that I hadn't picked up on. Even (or especially) in sentences whose meaning I understand.

That's all it is, a little change in mindset.

 

*Although I wonder if it mayn't also be useful for intensive listening study at any level at which intensive listening study is still something one feels the need to do.

[Shelley]

I do this unintentionally when listening to a new text. At first all I can hear is the sounds, there are no meanings.

I listen again and again and gradually the meaning and the sounds merge.

If I follow a written text as I listen this is even more like just hearing the sounds because the meaning is in the text I am reading so I don't try to put meaning to sounds until I just listen to the audio on its own.

 

 

 

[imron]

I'm curious as to what language?

[realmayo]

Korean!

[Shelley]

Ah, I was talking about Chinese, which i thought was what you were talking about.

[realmayo]

I was talking about any foreign language.

[Shelley]

Ok, makes sense.

[anonymoose]

So have you worked out how to distinguish b, bb, p, pp, bbb, ppp yet? That's what killed me with Korean.

[realmayo]

Yes I have! I dipped my toes into this language more than 5 years ago but gave up after a couple of months and back then was really struggling with those consonant-differences. But this time, just listening, I'm surprised at being able to ppick out which sounds I'm hearing.

I do think this approach is helping: if I hear the sentence "I haven't got a pen" and if I was just trying to understand the sentence, then I wouldn't be paying attention to what 'p' is in 'pen'. But because I'm prioritising sounds over meaning, I'm super-aware of all the sounds I'm hearing, and hopefully will end up more sensitive to them.

 

Perhaps the Chinese beginner equivalent would be: when you hear 来 in a sentence the first thought shouldn't be: "that means 'come' because I remember this sentence and anyway, the only pinyin written 'lai' that I've learned so far is 来". Instead it should be: "I clearly made out second-tone 'lai'".

 

It's probably why people report such good progress after spending time transcribing audio.

 

Anyway it's fun learning a new language! I'm trying to learn it the way I wish I'd started Chinese. Just listening for the first few months ....

[Flickserve]

Started this early on. Listened to the Mandarin radio lots. Almost everyday for a year. But I don't know how good an effect it has had.

 

@realmayo are you just better experienced at recognising sounds at present time compared to five years ago? As opposed to differences in methodology?

[Publius]

14 hours ago, anonymoose said:

So have you worked out how to distinguish b, bb, p, pp, bbb, ppp yet? That's what killed me with Korean.

You should try Hindi lol.

On top of the "usual" four-way distinction (unvoiced unaspirated 'spin', unvoiced aspirated 'pin', voiced unaspirated 'bin', voiced aspirated 'wtf?!'), they also have a dental vs. retroflex contrast -- that is, there are two rows in the alphabet: the dental series ta, tha, da, dha, which from a Hindustani point of view is closer to the English consonants in 'thin' and 'this'; and the retroflex series Ta, Tha, Da, Dha with the tongue curled back, which is used to substitute the English 't' and 'd' and gives the Indian accent its distinct flavor.

@Lumbering Oxthought Hey, cows are sacred in India, it must be a good idea to learn Hindi. He was driven mad by the eight T's. Watch this video and you'll know why: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IARkH3lWmNo

[realmayo]

7 hours ago, Flickserve said:

@realmayo are you just better experienced at recognising sounds at present time compared to five years ago? As opposed to differences in methodology?

 

Possible but the only important thing is that I'm paying lots more attention to the sounds I hear. That's all. I'd hesitate to call it a methodology, just a way to focus, when listening to dialogues and example sentences, to the sounds. For me, listening-for-meaning was an obstacle to that focus.

 

@Publius eight T's does sound a little extravagant for any language....

 

[abcdefg]

22 hours ago, realmayo said:

It's probably why people report such good progress after spending time transcribing audio.

 

I'll bet that's right. Wish it weren't so painful.

[Lumbering Ox]

On 2017/10/03 at 2:24 AM, Publius said:

You should try Hindi lol.

On top of the "usual" four-way distinction (unvoiced unaspirated 'spin', unvoiced aspirated 'pin', voiced unaspirated 'bin', voiced aspirated 'wtf?!'), they also have a dental vs. retroflex contrast -- that is, there are two rows in the alphabet: the dental series ta, tha, da, dha, which from a Hindustani point of view is closer to the English consonants in 'thin' and 'this'; and the retroflex series Ta, Tha, Da, Dha with the tongue curled back, which is used to substitute the English 't' and 'd' and gives the Indian accent its distinct flavor.

@Lumbering Oxthought Hey, cows are sacred in India, it must be a good idea to learn Hindi. He was driven mad by the eight T's. Watch this video and you'll know why

I sweat by the many arms of Vishnu that I've tried it. I recall there being 4 D's and 4 T's which all sound identical to me. Then I switched to Japanese, almost finished RTK before figuring that I lack the weebality to continue, now I am trying to get the gumption to drive on in Chinese.

Hindi is on my language TDL list if I ever get my buttocks in gear. I do like me them thar bollywood and Canada is flooded with native Hindi speakers as well as Punjabi and Gujarati who tend to know the Hindi. So unlike say Japanese or in my small burg Chinese I'd actually be able to use Hindi with actual soylent green. But them overlapping d's and t's scare me at this point.

Well that and the near absence of material in book, pod and forum format.