The Power of Listening

[nipponman]

By the way, I think the best method to get the tones right is the learners themselves first try to hear the difference of the 4 tones, using very simple syllables as practising materials. Once the learners have done this, the corrections by teachers/ helpers will have a better chance to be effective.

I don't know about that. I can very clearly hear the difference b/w all four tones on different simple (usually single) syllables, its the conversational part that gives me trouble. To be honest, there is no way to get good at tones. As foreigners coming from a non-tonal language, the sad news is that we will probably never be able to hear tones as well as a native person. B/c they didn't learn the tones either, they picked them up from their surroundings. The only way, IMO, to approach good tones is to completely immerse yourself in them, slowly at first, then gradually more and more.

[Xiao Kui]

The tones have frustrated me as well. In some classes the teacher doesn't correct you when it's wrong. In others, the teacher corrects you, but you end up exaggerating the tone in order to remember it. Your tones sound great for pronouncing individual words, but when you string words together in conversation it sounds unnatural and [POP=sheng1 ying4 stiff, rigid, choppy, harsh]生硬[/POP] I find that I hit the 4th tone way too strong and/or make the syllable too long, and it slows down my speaking. (maybe it's a personal problem) However, maybe exaggeration is a necessary step in learning tones and being able to hear them.

I've found that some friends who didn't give a rip abt learning tones (or reading for that matter) but had a lot of Chinese friends and chatted a lot in Chinese sounded more fluent than me and though their tones were wrong a lot, they ended up getting many of them right just by hearing them over and over again in the context of conversation.

So now that I've been through the whole tone exaggeration phase, I am listening to audiobooks and hearing tones in their context, my tones are beginning to sound not only correct, but more natural. I'm not in China right now so audiobooks are my best option for listening practice, I only hope I don't end up speaking literary Chinese when I get back to China! Who wants to sound like [POP=san4 wen2 prose,especially Chinese essays full of sentimental imagery]散文[/POP]？

[HashiriKata]

What is wrong with my example, anyway?

I think you meant to say:

So if you see another word with the 4th tone followed by the 2nd tone, think about "map" or "exercise".

in stead of:

So if you see another word with the 4th tone followed by the 3rd tone, think about "map" or "exercise".

[atitarev]

I see, sorry, HashiriKata, my mistake. 4, then 2.

[wrbt]

I've found that some friends who didn't give a rip abt learning tones (or reading for that matter) but had a lot of Chinese friends and chatted a lot in Chinese sounded more fluent than me and though their tones were wrong a lot, they ended up getting many of them right just by hearing them over and over again in the context of conversation.

EXACTLY!

The person who's heard "差不多" over and over from different dialogues/speakers will just rattle it off with the right amount of emphasis on tones, without even thinking about rolling them together into a quick three tone combo.

Listen, listen, listen.

[atitarev]

I think the reason teachers stop correcting students is because they fear to scare away students and get students who will cry when they are corrected.

I prefer to be corrected if I am wrong but correcting explanation with what was wrong, if I don't hear the difference.

[hei ren]

Wow, glad to hear I'm not the only person having this problem. I try to use intonation to help me decipher multisyllable words, but I usually don't have luck because it throws off my tone recognition. It's especially worst when I hear natural chinese speech. It's too unstressed and under enunciate for me to recognize tones, and because of that I usually quit listening after a few minutes or so. But I shouldn't be complaining, since I only listen to the news which over exaggerates tones and syllables.

I think that's part of the reason atitarev, but also because it would take too much time for the teacher to correct students everytime they make tonal mistakes. That's what, at least, my teacher did because she wanted to get through our lesson plan last semester. Some students in my class conversational skills are so bad, they haven't even gotten pinyin down, and yet when the make mistakes all the time, she usually doesn't correct them. She use hammer them down a lot in the past, but I guess she got tired of it because she knew they're not trying to improve, so she probably didn't want to waste her time on them.

But anyway, I don't think it's the teacher's job to correct the student everytime, because recognizing tones in spoken context is something that cannot be learnt quickly. Learning the discrepancies of the tones in spoken context is something probably that can only be learnt by constantly training the ear to notice such differences, by actively and consciously listening to spoken chinese. You obviously cannot to that in a classroom since there's not enough time to do so, so it's something you must do on your own.

[bomaci]

To be honest, there is no way to get good at tones. As foreigners coming from a non-tonal language, the sad news is that we will probably never be able to hear tones as well as a native person. B/c they didn't learn the tones either, they picked them up from their surroundings. The only way, IMO, to approach good tones is to completely immerse yourself in them, slowly at first, then gradually more and more.

I think you have hit the nail on the head. Native speakers do not study tones at all so why should we. Native speakers of mandarin learn the language the same way all kids do. By listening a LOT. If you learn by first listening alot and then imitating you will learn to hear and say entire expressions without thinking of the individual tones. The problem with learning mandarin is that near native intonation may be required just to be understood. With european languages you can usually be understood even with an intonation which is completely off. Sure you will sound very weird to native speakers but they will probably understand you. Thus there doesn't seem to be any real consensus in the langauge teaching world on how to efficiently teach intonation to adult learners. This of course presents a problem when people learn tonal languages since intonation is very important when learning them. For instance how many adult learners of italian speak with native like intonation? If you had to learn Italian intonation properly in order to be understood, Italian would also be considered very difficult to pronounce.

[wrbt]

atitarev, hei ren - agreed with teachers/correction. I think many Chinese programs suffer much attrition between 1st and 2nd year too, so students must not be made to cry.

bomaci - consider how difficult it is for Chinese to master to hand gestures and arm waving required to communicate in Italian like a native

[kudra]

@ hei ren

my 2 cents worth

http://www.chinese-forums.com/showpost.php?p=52830&postcount=2

and then of course the rebuttal

http://www.chinese-forums.com/showpost.php?p=53063&postcount=17

and the rebuttal of the rebuttal

http://www.chinese-forums.com/showpost.php?p=53073&postcount=18

shorter verson: slow way down, don't worry about sounding weird compared to classmates, and ask the teacher or a study partner to pound on you relentlessly.

[hei ren]

I don't know which part you were quoting me, but I'm guess it was the first paragraph I wrote. Currently I'm not enrolled in summer school, so no chinese class for me. I just did that study session on my own.

That's some good advice you said though, and I plan on using the next time I'm in chinese class.

[atitarev]

To Xiao Kui.

I think it's OK to exaggerate tones while learning, they will get smoother with more practice saying longer sentences, which can also be done. I used MS Media Player on slower speed just to slow down the playback to hear the exact tones and to repeat them, pausing after each short clause. It works, believe me! Of course, your family may get a bit annoyed if you do that for a long time at home

My teacher and my language exchange partner say I am OK with tones when I speak slowly buyt when I speak faster, I get them wrong sometimes. I also forget what tones to use when I speak a bit faster I only blame myself, I am sure I can get better if I put in a bit more effort.

Listening alone is not enough, of course, you have to try and imitate the pronunciation, the more the better.

For those who say, it's impossible to master tones in a non-Chinese environment, here's my advise:

Get a stupid/simple dialogue with simple words you know and you have a good, clear and slow audio for. Listen to one sentence at a time and try repeating it until you get it perfect or near perfect. Have I said something new? I don't think so, you just need to work hard. If you memorise a whole diologue/text, it's even better and get a native speaker/teacher check your pronunciation. You can keep doing this until you get more confidence. Even if you master just a bunch of very common phrases but new sentences won't be so natural it's still better than nothing. Naturalness of tones will come with practise.

[shiaosan]

I have not been on this site for a while (creating some useful online lessons). And I am very interested in all the new posts.

I still firmly (maybe much stronger) believe that listening is an essential part in learning Mandarin, especially for beginners. Listen to approporiate materials will greatly benefit learners on every levels. Don't jump start on listening to TV, radio, or anything contains too much new vocab and structures (10% or more)

If anybody who is interested to have some freebies and look at some sample lessons I made during the past 12 months, please take a look at

http://www.msllearningcenter.com/useful_freebies.htm