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LuDaibola

Is possession implied in this sentence?

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LuDaibola

So I came across this negative command awhile back -  別聽她的。- and have been trying to figure out why the 的 is there.  I'm wondering if this is a shorter version of - 別聽她的話。- in which case the 的 would denote possession.  I have studied all of the pages related to 的 in ChineseGrammarWiki but the way I experience that is that sometimes I think I get it, then realize I didn't actually, then have a flash of clarity, then lose it, etc.  Thanks for any light you can shed on this.

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GregO

Yes, you are correct. The 话 has been dropped. This type of thing is extremely common in spoken Chinese.

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Pandarow

别听她的 is a common expression in daily communication. Here 她的 means 她的话,她的意思 or 她说的. Another example is 你们都得听我的, it is very popular in kids when they are playing together and needs a leader. Here 我的 means 我的话,我的安排,我的计划. 

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LuDaibola

Super...thanks to both of you.  And, yes, I have seen this in other instances as well so I'm happy to have this mystery solved and my suspicions confirmed.

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Messidor

Here the final 的 can also be understood as a sentence final particle (SFP).

别听她的 can be translated as either "don't listen to her words" or "don't listen to her".

In the latter case, 的 is a simple SFP while in the former case it is either a genitive marker also functioning as a SFP or (as some may insist) a pure genitive marker.

 

I'll give another 2 examples:

这书是我的 genitive marker----的 can't be dropped, otherwise the sentence meaning will be changed completely.

这事他知道的 SFP---的 can be dropped. I'll change the tone but not the meaning.

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LuDaibola

Ha!  I knew things couldn't be that simple.  Thanks, Messidor.

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Beelzebro
On 6/8/2018 at 10:46 PM, LuDaibola said:

I'm wondering if this is a shorter version of - 別聽她的話。- in which case the 的 would denote possession

 

的 does not indicate possession. It simply creates an attributive connection between whatever precedes it with whatever follows it. Eg. 红色的书 does not mean "the book that belongs to red" it means "the book that is red" (or idiomatically, "the red book"). 昨天看的书 is "the book that was read yesterday". Your sentence 别听她的 is short for 别听她说的话 "don't listen to the words that were said by her" (idiomatically "don't listen to what she said").

 

The times when 的 "indicates possession" are simply specific cases within the above general meaning.

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LuDaibola
22 minutes ago, Beelzebro said:

The times when 的 "indicates possession" are simply specific cases within the above general meaning.

 

我想我明白; however, can you give an example of such an instance?  Would saying "不要聽別人的話" be an example of the possessive or is that also simply an attributive connection?

 

BTW, I'm sure I'm not the only Mandarin-learner who wishes they'd paid more attention to the grammar taught in elementary school...I remember hating that subject and now it's coming back to haunt me as I struggle to understand the explanations given by all of you linguistic experts.

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LuDaibola

I'll have to think about what you've said a bit more later since I'm heading out for an hours-long appointment in a minute.  I'm still a bit confused as to why "her words" doesn't denote possession.  How is this different than "her purse" or "her husband" both of which are simple forms of possession.  I don't have time, at the moment to think about this and, when I do have time later today it may click, so please don't spend a lot of time on this now (perhaps, your earlier explanation will suffice once I've had time to think about it is what I'm saying).  Thanks for your feedback.

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Beelzebro
22 minutes ago, LuDaibola said:

Would saying "不要聽別人的話" be an example of the possessive or is that also simply an attributive connection?

 

My point is that it is always attributive. Even something like 我的猫 is simply tagging 我 onto 猫 to indicate the cat has some connection with me. Any sentence with an attributive part will be just as valid without it. By that I mean, for example, in the sentence 我妈妈说她很喜欢我的猫 you can remove the attributive part (我的) to reduce the sentence to 我妈妈说她很喜欢猫 and it still makes perfect sense as a sentence. It just lacks any reference indicating a specific 猫, and therefore refers to 猫s in general. In other words, the 的 is used to tag extra information onto a noun, turning it from a general noun into something more specific. With your sentence 不要听别人的话 the "extra information" is 别人. 不要听话 is "don't listen", 不要听别人的话 is "don't listen to what other people say".

 

12 minutes ago, LuDaibola said:

I'm still a bit confused as to why "her words" doesn't denote possession.  How is this different than "her purse" or "her husband" both of which are simple forms of possession.

 

The distinction doesn't really matter. Possession is a special case of attribution where the "extra information" the speaker is giving is a pronoun. 我的猫,他的猫,红色的猫,可爱的猫,我最不喜欢的猫. The character 的 is performing the same grammatical function in all of these, linking additional information to a noun, regardless of whether the information is a person or an adjective or an entire phrase.

 

22 minutes ago, LuDaibola said:

BTW, I'm sure I'm not the only Mandarin-learner who wishes they'd paid more attention to the grammar taught in elementary school...I remember hating that subject and now it's coming back to haunt me as I struggle to understand the explanations given by all of you linguistic experts.

 

Haha. You'll get it, don't worry :D. Apologies btw for using simplified characters, hopefully they aren't a problem for you, the computer I'm currently using does not have a traditional character input method.

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LuDaibola
On 6/11/2018 at 10:14 AM, Beelzebro said:

My point is that it is always attributive.

 

Okay.  So I finally took the time to study what you wrote and I think I understand it as well as I can at this stage of my learning.  Thanks very much for your thorough response.

  

On 6/11/2018 at 10:14 AM, Beelzebro said:

Apologies btw for using simplified characters, hopefully they aren't a problem for you, the computer I'm currently using does not have a traditional character input method.

 

No worries.  It's I who should be apologizing for using traditional characters most ot the time as I realize everyone else uses simplified here (for the most part).  I mentioned when I first started commenting on this forum that I'm not learning how to write because, at my age and stage of 衰老 and with my goal of simply being able to tour Taiwan comfortably, it simply doesn't make sense.  However, I recognize more and more characters as I go and, because my goal is to go to Taiwan, not China, I restrict myself to the use of traditional characters whenever I do use them.  You've made me think, though.  Do you think that members of this forum would appreciate my translating traditional into simplified when I insert characters here?  I use Google translate to go from Pinyin to Hanzi so it wouldn't be difficult for me to switch from T to S.   

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Beelzebro
16 minutes ago, LuDaibola said:

Thanks very much for your thorough response.

 

You're welcome :D. Glad I could help out.

 

18 minutes ago, LuDaibola said:

It's I who should be apologizing for using traditional characters most ot the time as I realize everyone else uses simplified here (for the most part).  I mentioned when I first started commenting on this forum that I'm not learning how to write because, at my age and stage of 衰老 and with my goal of simply being able to tour Taiwan comfortably, it simply doesn't make sense.  However, I recognize more and more characters as I go and, because my goal is to go to Taiwan, not China, I restrict myself to the use of traditional characters whenever I do use them.  You've made me think, though.  Do you think that members of this forum would appreciate my translating traditional into simplified when I insert characters here?  I use Google translate to go from Pinyin to Hanzi so it wouldn't be difficult for me to switch from T to S.   

 

Haha, thanks for teaching me a new word (衰老)! As for your question, I can't speak for everyone here (I only started browsing this forum a few weeks ago) but personally I am equally at home with traditional and simplified. I think once someone gets to a certain level with Chinese, they naturally will have been exposed to enough of the opposite character set to be able to read it without much of an issue (certainly the common characters like the measure word "ge" etc). I expect that the majority of frequent posters on this site are at that level or higher. Therefore I don't think there's a need to add simplified characters to your posts. We're all using mouse-over dictionary browser add-ons anyway, aren't we? Anyone reading this who isn't, install one right now!

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LuDaibola
2 minutes ago, Beelzebro said:

We're all using mouse-over dictionary browser add-ons anyway, aren't we? Anyone reading this who isn't, install one right now!

 

Uh, no.  Can you recommend one that's Window-based.  My laptop's pretty cheap, btw, so if it'll slow things down I'd rather just copy into Google translate.

 

4 minutes ago, Beelzebro said:

thanks for teaching me a new word (衰老)!

 

Actually, I kind of got to this word in a backwards fashion and that leads me to ask the following question:  Have you ever heard anyone use the word 路痴?  It means "person with a poor sense of direction."  I was imagining myself in Taiwan trying to find my old childhood haunts, getting lost, and telling someone that I have a poor sense of direction when I ran across this word and was so tickled by it.  Anway. as I often do when I'm learning a word, I searched on just 路 and learned 老年癡呆症 but, since that doesn't accurately descibe the current state of my brain, I finally arrived at 衰老.

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Beelzebro
18 hours ago, LuDaibola said:

Uh, no.  Can you recommend one that's Window-based.  My laptop's pretty cheap, btw, so if it'll slow things down I'd rather just copy into Google translate.

 

Which browser are you using? If you're using Chrome then this one is the one I recommend. It doesn't matter if you have a slow computer - it barely uses any processing power/RAM. Just add the extension in that link, then near the top right of your browser there'll be a grey button. Press it, then refresh the page. Then it'll work. (you don't need to do these steps except the first time you install). Just move your mouse over any Chinese character and the pronunciation and definition will appear.

 

18 hours ago, LuDaibola said:

Have you ever heard anyone use the word 路痴?  It means "person with a poor sense of direction." 

 

Haha, I have heard that word a few times, and I've always found it amusing too. "road idiot" :D

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LuDaibola
2 hours ago, Beelzebro said:

Just move your mouse over any Chinese character and the pronunciation and definition will appear.

 

 

哦哇,哦哇,哦哇。。。 這太酷了!Oh wow, oh wow, oh wow....this is so cool.  Thanks so much for this tip and for whatever led you to wonder whether everyone was using one of these mouse-over apps.  So much better than using Google translate which gives one-word definitions.  And I won't worry anymore about whether to use 簡體字 or 繁體字 since this program recognizes both.  I owe you one, for sure.  If you're ever anywhere near Lebanon, Pennsylvania, I'll stand you for a 啤酒.

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Beelzebro

Hahah, I had pretty much the same reaction when I first found out about these addons. Make life so much easier. Glad to be of help :D and I'll hold you to that 啤酒 haha.

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LuDaibola
On 6/14/2018 at 6:50 PM, Beelzebro said:

I'll hold you to that 啤酒 haha.

 

完全正確! BTW, I met GregO yesterday because of this offer.  His Mandarin is quite advanced but he was very helpful and patiently tried to make sense of my utterances...it's quite informative to find out that, although you know a lot of words, you don't know how to get them out in any coherent fashion.  Who knew that feeling stupid could be such a powerful motivator?  It's nose to the grindstone for me (he loaned me a DeFrancis reader so I may take another crack at learning Hanzi). 

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Lu
On 6/13/2018 at 3:02 PM, LuDaibola said:

Do you think that members of this forum would appreciate my translating traditional into simplified when I insert characters here?

Nah, that's not necessary. As Beelzebro mentions, many people here can comfortably read both. Just use whichever set you prefer and people will figure it out, either because they're fine with either or through a dictionary. Personally I use whatever set my computer is set to at a given moment.

 

And I'm glad to read you're finding all kinds of help here!

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GregO
1 hour ago, LuDaibola said:

BTW, I met GregO yesterday because of this offer.  His Mandarin is quite advanced but he was very helpful and patiently tried to make sense of my utterances...it's quite informative to find out that, although you know a lot of words, you don't know how to get them out in any coherent fashion.  Who knew that feeling stupid could be such a powerful motivator?  It's nose to the grindstone for me (he loaned me a DeFrancis reader so I may take another crack at learning Hanzi). 

Come on now, you sound quite good. You have accomplished a lot in a short period of time and have a solid vocabulary. More listening and speaking practice will have you travelling around Taiwan like a pro! As we discussed, there is no real shortcut to getting around tons and tons of input.

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LuDaibola
20 minutes ago, GregO said:

you sound quite good

 

Wow, you're being overly-generous but thank you.  You seem to have forgotten that I didn't remember how to say that I'm not thirsty when you offered me tea, ha, ha.

 

22 minutes ago, GregO said:

tons and tons of input

 

Taking your advice to heart I watched a Chinese video on Viki last night...they have a learning Mandarin feature that allows you to see subtitles in pinyin and hanzi.  Not sure why I've never enjoyed Chinese/Taiwan dramas as much as Korean dramas but I'll just have to sacrifice for the cause.

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