Why don't 住 and 工作 like 了?

[Christa]

I've noticed something in conversation with Chinese speakers. They don't say 住了 or 工作了 when talking about the past. Instead they say 住过 and 工作过.

 

And when I've said something like 我在这里住了 or 我在这里工作了, they tell me I'm wrong and that I should use 过 instead of 了.

 

Why?

[QAQo.]

“我在这里住了”is not a complete sentence, and it doesn’t mean “I lived here.” It means “I have been here for...” followed by a period of time. For example, 我在这里住过一年 (I have been here for one year.)

 

I live here. 我住这里.

I lived here. 我住过这里. or 我在这里住过.

I have lived here for one year. 我在这里住了一年.

I had lived here for one year. 我在这里住过(了)一年.

 

 

[anonymoose]

Because 了 signifies completion of an action, and 住 and 工作 are open ended actions - in other words, not actions that can be completed (without some other qualifier, like specific length of time).

 

You can say, however, 我在这里住了五年, because by explicitly stating a duration, it is now  possible to complete this action (of having lived here for the stated period of time).

 

On the other hand, 过 is a marker of experience, and presumably what you are wanting to say in English is "I lived here", which means once upon a time you lived here, or in other words, you have the experience of having lived here. That is why in this situation, 过 is the correct particle to use.

[Christa]

Awesome! How helpful! Thank you!

[DavyJonesLocker]

Do you guys normally use 这里？ I have a tendency to say 这儿 but probably because I picked up the Beijing erhua by osmosis.

 

[stapler]

Actually, when I can, I much prefer using 这边. It feels much more natural to me

[QAQo.]

12 hours ago, stapler said:

 

Actually, when I can, I much prefer using 这边. It feels much more natural to me

 

While 这里refers to a specific place, 这边refers to an area.

[Beelzebro]

The key point is that 过 is an experiential marker and 了 indicates completed aspect. Or to phrase that more plainly, you use 过 to indicate you have *at some point in the past* had the experience of doing something. 了 just indicates the thing happened. For examples:

 

你吃过这个吗？- the speaker is asking the listener if they *have ever* eaten this thing before.  

你昨天吃了那个巧克力吗？ - the speaker is asking whether the action of eating that chocolate took place or not.

 

So:

 

我在上海住过 I have lived in Shanghai (at some point in the past, doesn't matter when, the point is that I have had the experience of living there)  

我在上海住了三个月了 I have been living in Shanghai for three months  

我在上海住了两年，然后... I lived in Shanghai for two years, then...

[NinjaTurtle]

On 6/23/2018 at 1:55 PM, Christa said:

They don't say 住了 or 工作了 when talking about the past. Instead they say 住过 and 工作过.

 

Christa,

 

I thought I'd give you a couple more examples of these forms of present perfect in English. In English we can ask:

 

"Have you been to CarreFour?"

 

But this can actually have different meanings:

 

"Have you (ever) been to CarreFour?"

 

or

 

"Have you been to CarreFour (today)?" which is similar to "Have you (already) been to CarreFour?"

 

It is this distinction that is the key here, and is key when trying to ask either type of question in Chinese.

 

 

 

[Christa]

5 hours ago, NinjaTurtle said:

Christa,

 

I thought I'd give you a couple more examples of these forms of present perfect in English. In English we can ask:

 

"Have you been to CarreFour?"

 

But this can actually have different meanings:

 

"Have you (ever) been to CarreFour?"

 

or

 

"Have you been to CarreFour (today)?" which is similar to "Have you (already) been to CarreFour?"

 

It is this distinction that is the key here, and is key when trying to ask either type of question in Chinese.

 

Hi guys. Thanks for these examples.

 

I do know the general difference between 过 and 了. What struck me as odd was that certain verbs - such as 住 or 工作 - don't like taking 了 to form the equivalent of what would be the simple past in English, whereas most other verbs - such as to eat, to drink, to go and so on - will take 了to create the equivalent meaning of their simple past equivalents in English.

[imron]

1 hour ago, Christa said:

such as 住 or 工作 - don't like taking 了 to form the equivalent of what would be the simple past in English

That's because 了 is not past tense!

[NinjaTurtle]

10 hours ago, Christa said:

certain verbs - such as 住 or 工作 - don't like taking 了 to form the equivalent of what would be the simple past in English, whereas most other verbs - such as to eat, to drink, to go and so on - will take 了

 

That makes sense. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Angelina]

On 6/24/2018 at 2:55 AM, Christa said:

when talking about the past

 

 

verbal aspect has nothing to do with the past 

 

 

[Christa]

On 6/25/2018 at 9:52 AM, imron said:

That's because 了 is not past tense!

 

16 hours ago, Angelina said:

verbal aspect has nothing to do with the past 

 

Hey guys, that sounds great in theory but, just to be clear, I didn't use the word "tense" and to say that verbal aspect has nothing to do with the past is not correct.

 

If you want to say "I go" you'll say "我去". If you want to say "I went" it's likely you'll say "我去了". So, you can't say that verbal aspect has nothing to do with the past. It is in fact essential for talking about a great number of things that occurred in the past. It's not the same as a tense, of course, but it is sometimes used to communicate, to the person you're speaking to, that an event occurred prior to now. That it may do this by signalling the completion of that action doesn't really matter. It still clearly can have something to do with the past in certain situations. Of course, in other situations, it may have something to do with the future or even the present but aspect certainly can be said to have a use that is related to describing events that occurred in the past.

 

Anyway, that is all somewhat beside the point. My question was more, why is it that 了 isn't really used in this way with 住 and 工作, given that it can be used in that way with verbs such as eat, drink, go etc.

 

Think about it, generally one could say:

 

I went - 我去了

I ate - 我吃了

I drank - 我喝了

 

But "I worked" is not going to be translated as 我工作了 but more probably as 我工作过. And "I lived" is not going to be translated as 我住了 but more probably as 我住过.

This is why I was asking: what is it about those verbs that makes them reluctant to take 了 when using them to talk about things that happened in the past?

 

 

[NinjaTurtle]

5 hours ago, Christa said:

But "I worked" is not going to be translated as 我工作了 but more probably as 我工作过.

 

Is it okay to say "我上班了" ?

[Christa]

I think you've got the same problem here as with the other verbs I mentioned above. Again, my experience has been that people say 我上班过 in order to refer to something in the past with this verb.

[stapler]

On 6/25/2018 at 6:29 AM, QAQo. said:

While 这里refers to a specific place, 这边refers to an area.

 

Hence my qualification “when I can”. 

 

Also, still on this side topic. I think I avoid 這兒 because I almost always go with “zhei” and “nei”. So I guess like you @DavyJonesLocker I’ve come to emulate the kind of speakers I have most contact with. 

[imron]

5 hours ago, Christa said:

I think you've got the same problem here as with the other verbs

I think this is a different 了.  It's 'change of state' 了 indicating a change of state from not being at work to being at work, rather than the other examples which use  'completed action marker' 了.

 

That is, it means something more like "I'm at work" (where previously you weren't, or where the person you are speaking to didn't realise you were at work), rather than referring to anything in the past.

 

 

[Christa]

3 hours ago, imron said:

I think this is a different 了.  It's 'change of state' 了 indicating a change of state from not being at work to being at work, rather than the other examples which use  'completed action marker' 了.

 

That is, it means something more like "I'm at work" (where previously you weren't, or where the person you are speaking to didn't realise you were at work), rather than referring to anything in the past.

 

That's interesting.

 

This must be related to what anonymoose said about how "了 signifies completion of an action, and 住 and 工作 are open ended actions" so 过 is required rather than了.

 

I wonder what characteristics a verb has to have to constitute an open ended action. Why is working an open ended action but eating is not? I mean, yes you will eventually stop eating but you will also eventually stop working.

[EnergyReaper]

 

On 6/24/2018 at 2:55 AM, Christa said:

I've noticed something in conversation with Chinese speakers. They don't say 住了 or 工作了 when talking about the past. Instead they say 住过 and 工作过.

In my opinion, you can't simply say "住" or "工作" can't be used with "了" when talking about the past。It depends. See dialog below:

A: 你昨天去哪儿了？ Where did you live yesterday?

B:我去朋友家住了。I lived in my friend's house.

 

A: 你昨天怎么没来公司？ Why didn't you come to company yesterday?

B: 我在家里工作了。I worked at home.

 

It's similar to this CGW article Putting 了 After Consecutive Actions

 

On 6/27/2018 at 2:12 PM, Christa said:

I wonder what characteristics a verb has to have to constitute an open ended action. Why is working an open ended action but eating is not? I mean, yes you will eventually stop eating but you will also eventually stop working.

I suggest you not to have this idea. Just remember these verb usages in sentences under a context, and this is the way I study English.