Hardest sound to pronounce?

[andreabt]

At Roddy's suggestion, I'm asking this here, as opposed to in the Chinese names thread, where it would not get as much attention!

The hardest Chinese syllable for me is "rui". I have trouble making come out the way it ought to (maybe something like "wray"?) as opposed to "ray". Anyone else have trouble with this, or with another sound?

I also used to have trouble with "ri". I used to just say "ruh". OK, with maybe a little more finesse than that, but it wasn't exactly right. Then one of my students was having trouble pronouncing the s in "pleasure" and as I explained, she said, "Oh, it's like the Chinese 'ri'!"

Andrea

[PollyWaffle]

yes, i find ri difficult to say without stopping & thinking about it. in fact i hate saying anything that begins with 'r'.

it also depends on the sentence too. sometimes a word that is easy to pronounce becomes difficult becasue of the preceeding word.

[sfr@rcn.com]

Yes, I do a terrible job on ri, re, etc. But I'm even worse at X. I listen to my friends, watch their mouths form the sounds and still it doesn't come out right. And then there's N. In the Nanjing dialect (and some other places), it sounds much more like an L to the ears of an English speaker. If I remember, I try to make an L sound but much more nasaly--my tongue is curled back and touches the back of my front teeth. Seems to work.

Then there's the Q, which my teachers says I don't make explosive enough--keep my tongue flat (not touching the roof of my mouth the way you'd expect palatalized sounds to need) and make sure my cheeks puff out.

I'm grateful for the tip about the s in pleasure. I'm going to try out and see what kind of response I get.

And I'll eagelry try out any other tips people have.

[andreabt]

I might be able to help with "x". First, say "sh", then say "s". Then try to go back and forth between them slowly. The "x" sound is about halfway between the two. The "q" is similarly between the "ch" and "ts" (or "c" as in cesuo). Does that make any sense?

And you are right about the N, and certain dialects! I suspect northern Jiangsu on the whole does not have two distinct sounds for "l" and "n". My husband is from Lianyungang, and guess what? He can't even say the name of his hometown correctly In general, "n" and "l" are (supposed to be) the same as in English.

I've noticed a similar problem with Shanghainese not being able to pronounce Shanghai; they don't have the "sh" sound in Shanghaihua, so they say "Sanghai" (which, for those interested in trivia, is why Amy Tan's book, PBS show, and cat are all named "Sagwa", instead of "Shagua").

Andrea

[sfr@rcn.com]

I'm going to walk around the house today trying to get a sound between sh and s, and then between q and ts.

As for N and L, my former son-in-law (from Nanjing) once told me, "you're lice."

This is off the track, but I learned a lot of grammar from my qian1 son-in-law because he tended to speak English with a huge English vocabulary but using Chinese grammar and sometimes completely Chinese word order.

Thanks.

[JoH]

I can never get the

[sfr@rcn.com]

Try just making ju and qu with your tongue flat in your mouth (so you can't make a retroflex chu or zhu). Then, stretch your lips sideways as you speak ju or qu--in other words, you're stretching your lips as if you're making an ee sound but with some pucker for the u umlaut sound.

This works for me. Hope it helps you.

Sandra

[JoH]

Thanks for the tip Sandra. I'll keep practicing ... hopefully it'll come out right eventually.

Jo

[roddy]

try saying the first sound of pnemonia, as pronounced in English (obviously easier if you're a native English speaker). It's the closest English gets to this sound.

[channamasala]

I have troubles with X but am slowly getting the better of them (people still mistake my "xue(2)s for "shui(3)"s but a little less often every day).

My biggest problems now are the R and, oddly, the zh. I know zh shouldn't be as hard, but my "Zhongguo" often comes out as Jongguo and my Zhejiang is usually more of a Zejiang and getting it right every time is...a challenge.

[roddy]

Sounds like a bad case of Guizhouhua. It can be cured by amputation of the tongue . . .

Roddy

[channamasala]

I haven't fallen into all of the Guizhouhua traps - I still say "sh" when it's "sh" instead of "s" ("water" in Zunyi is "sui", no joke) and I still say "c (ts)" instead of replacing it with "ch" (as in, "Zunyi ren bijiao chongming!"). I also still insist on the proper pronunciation of "xue" and will not say "show" as they do.

I have picked up stupid phrases like "me de" (mei you), "yao de bei" (hao bu hao?), "hanbao" (hen ben(3)!) and "er dou mei ershi ni!" (Wo bu xiang tong ni tanhua).

Not a good sign...aiyo.

[djwebb2004]

I have queried my Chinese teacher on "r" and "rui", and although it sounds odd, she tells me I pronounce itt right. Riben ren is another odd things to say. The key point is that r is the voiced equivalent of sh. If you say "shui" and then voice the sh, you have "rui".

[count_zero]

Every chinese person I've met seems to say the x sound a bit different. I say them like s bit with a lot of hiss.

hsssssxiuxi yixia!

Which seems to work!

re

qiu

That's another matter.

[Guest IVYtony]

ri, re, ren, rui, rou, these pronunciation are even hard for nativespeakers in South/East China.

As of people in Si Chuan province, most of them tend to pronounce niao instead of liao.

you guys did a good job, even better than somebody born in this country.

[zhuangzi]

Ha ha!

Ri is NOT the same as the S in pleasure.

Many Chinese cannot pronounce the S in pleasure or French Js.

"J'taime," for example. A nice, soft J.

The S in pleasure is a voiced SH. Just say SH and turn on the voice box and turn down the harshness a little.

Now, as you are doing that, role the tip of your tongue backwards and toward the roof of your mouth.

There you go. Chinese Ri.

If you want to say Japan 日本 (Riben) just start with "urban" and apply the above tongue principle.

And you know all that material on the inside of your cheeks that you bite from time to time while eating? Try tightening that up around your teeth and pulling it back a little. Assume the Ri position.

As for Rui, sorry buddy, you're on your own for that one!

[jwarriner]

Zhuangzi, djwebb2004, and others are pretty close trying to get to the leading r sound as in ri and rui when they suggest approaching it from shui and j'taime.

The sound is both retroflex (tongue curled to the roof of the mouth) and slightly fricative (forcing the breath through a restricted passage).

I think the example of English "pleasure" was good, using not just the 's' but the 'sure' syllable. The way I pronounce this word, the sure syllable starts with something very much like the j in j'taime. Reducing the soft 'sh'/'j' sound leaves ri.

As for rui, just replace the sh of shui with the r of ri and ren. It's the same opening sound.

Easier said than done? Yeah, maybe.

cheers,

john

[Lu]

I have trouble with dian/jian. I know the difference but when I'm speaking I don't stop to think about it so I think I often get them wrong. I once told a friend I had a jian4shi4, he said 'A what?' 'Jianshi. TV!' 'Ooh, Dianshi!'

Here so many Chinese can't say the Chinese r, I fear that by the time I go home I'll also say lou instead of rou.

[ala]

distinguishing endings -n from -ng by ear is almost impossible for me

[robert]

I started two months ago. I need a second tongue now.

My first language is Dutch and that seems to make it easyer for some sounds.

The best help is my teacher. her patience is just wonderful. It is repeat, repeat and more repeating.

This site is perfect !