radical questions

[Ferno]

hi guys/gals!

I saw a character, and because it was composed entirely of radicals, it stuck to my head so I could look it up later in a radical-based Chinese dictionary...

The character turned out to be 室 shi4 (room)

1. I tried to search for it for character 土 (tu3 - earth), didn't find it, then 厶 (si1 - secret), didn't find it, and then finally I found it with 宀 (mian2 - roof). I am guessing that 宀 is the designated radical because "roof" is the biggest hint towards the character's meaning of "room", but is it always like this? Sometimes the radical's connection to the meaning isn't obvious, or there is no "meaning" radical at all.

2. Is there a pronounciation radical? 厶 (si1) might a cousin of "shi4"... or do characters only contain either a pronounciation radical OR a meaning radical, never both?

xie xie

[自由翱翔]

Yes, sometimes,the radicals maybe neither "meaning radical"nor "pronunciation radical".

And the radicals with only one stroke can always be such radicals.

Some radicals in certain characters such as:力in 加, 厂in 厌 , 十 in 真....are also this kind.

[chenpv]

Is there a pronounciation radical?

Yes, ferno. most radicals have their own pronunciations. Take 室 for instance, the radical

宀 reads (mian2) with two meanings--- big house and cover.

NOTE: In 文言文(classic chinese)，堂 and 室 are different parts of a house. 堂 means the anterior part of an ancient chinese house where we meet guests(equivalent to living room), 室 means the posterior part where we live(equivalent to bedroom, washroom ,kitchen). But in modern chinese, we use the characters without much discriminations, eg. '课堂' ‘教室'. . My point is we can not simply assume 室 is room, however it is too hard for foreigners.

[fenlan]

Ferno, I think you meant to ask, where is the phonetic in the character. 至 is the phonetic, pronounced zhi4. I think you are looking in the wrong place for the radical. 厶 is right in the middle of this character, and the radical at the top is much more likely to be the radical. Essentially nearly all of the characters with 宀 at the top have 宀 as the radical.

[Ferno]

Yes' date=' ferno. most radicals have their own pronunciations. Take 室 for instance, the radical

宀 reads (mian2) with two meanings--- big house and cover.

[/quote']

Yes, I know, I meant the radical that gives information about pronounciation, not meaning - "phonetic" is the correct term as fenlan mentioned. ie: 到 "dao4" [something like "go to" but it means a lot of things] The radical 刂 "dao1" means knife, which has nothing to do with 到, but the radical's pronounciation of "dao1" is close to "dao4".

And I thought "宀" means roof?

NOTE: In 文言文(classic chinese)，堂 and 室 are different parts of a house. 堂 means the anterior part of an ancient chinese house where we meet guests(equivalent to living room), 室 means the posterior part where we live(equivalent to bedroom, washroom ,kitchen). But in modern chinese, we use the characters without much discriminations, eg. '课堂' ‘教室'. . My point is we can not simply assume 室 is room, however it is too hard for foreigners.

So what would be the term for a non-Chinese room where you wouldn't know anything about the room's role?

Ferno' date=' I think you meant to ask, where is the phonetic in the character. 至 is the phonetic, pronounced zhi4. I think you are looking in the wrong place for the radical. 厶 is right in the middle of this character, and the radical at the top is much more likely to be the radical. Essentially nearly all of the characters with 宀 at the top have 宀 as the radical.[/quote']

Oh sorry, I completely missed the the line (一?) above the 厶.

Hmm, in that case, the character is composed of 4 radicals?

室

宀

一

厶

土

( are my SIZE tags going through?? i'm not allowed to edit...)

this is getting confusing

It appears that 一, 厶, 土 are not supposed to be counted as radicals, they are instead part of a whole character 至, which is WITHIN the character of 室..., and this 至 is the hint for pronounciation. (I thought only radicals were supposed to be the phonetic hints, not entire characters-within-characters??)

Conclusion: a learner is supposed to look at 室, take 宀 as the "meaning" radical (roof -> room), ignore the 一, 厶, 土 radicals, instead combining them into the "至" character which he uses as the phonetic (zhi4 -> shi4)

Are there any rules for this?

Do most characters have both meaning AND phonetic components? Are entire characters-within-characters (not radicals) used for MEANING as well, like 至 is used in 室 for pronounciation?

thanks!

[fenlan]

Ferno, let's clear up the terminology. Characters only have one radical. In this case, it is the roof radical. There is no other radical in the character, although you could start pulling the phonetic apart and find bits and pieces that do form radicals in other characters. The trick is not to find 4 radicals in the character, but to identify which is clearly the portion of the character giving its general meaning area. So if you look at 语, even if it is the first time you have seen the character, the likelihood is that this is character having something to do with language. Nearly all characters with the language radical on the left have something to do with language. It makes no sense to try to decompose the phonetic and claim that there is a mouth radical underneath the character. There is only one radical, and it is the language radical. In looking for the radical, you are looking for something obvious. Although there are characters whose radicals are not obvious, 室 is not one of them. If you remove the roof radical in this character, you are left with a phonetic that is itself a character, with a closely related pronunciation, zhi4. Clearly, if you pick any of the elements you have pointed to as the radical, you are going to have a hard time interpreting what is left as any kind of phonetic.

[Ferno]

okay, thanks, but what about when the radical acts as a phonetic, not a meaning radical? If the radical is phonetic, would the rest of the character (ie, a whole new character like 至 inside 室) act as a hint towards MEANING?

I hope you understand me. I just don't see how everything is obvious when radical can be meaning OR phonetic, while the rest of the character can give phonetic OR meaning information.

ie your example 语 (or better yet, the traditional form 語). The "speech" radical 言 gives a hint towards meaning, is the other half of 語/语 another whole character which gives phonetic information?

[chenpv]

Yes, I know, I meant the radical that gives information about pronounciation, not meaning - "phonetic" is the correct term as fenlan mentioned. ie: 到 "dao4" [something like "go to" but it means a lot of things] The radical 刂 "dao1" means knife, which has nothing to do with 到, but the radical's pronounciation of "dao1" is close to "dao4".

And I thought "宀" means roof?

Ferno, yes, but only a few characters with radicals implying their pronunciations. and you can see 宀 as a 'roof' but this characher doesnt have that meaning.

So what would be the term for a non-Chinese room where you wouldn't know anything about the room's role?

haha, non-chinese, thats tough. anyway you could use '屋' '舍' '第' '宅' '居'------ house in general in Classical Chinese but some differences in meaning. I have start a thread explaining some Classical Chinese, I think they will be covered sooner or later.

As for the radical thing, fenlan gives you an excellent explanation in english.

I just add one small point based on Classical Chinese.

radical is the translation of '部首'. 部 means 'department' '首' means 'NO.1 minister'. the meaning of 部首 is the 'minister of a department' (like a govenment). For chinese characters, we categorise them into different departments with the similiar characteristics

for example: one department:'宀,宁 它 宇 守 宅 安 字 完 宋 宏 牢 灾.....', and we designate '宀 as the minister of this department' that is 部首. or radical in english. (the word 'radical' cannot fully reflect the meaning of 部首, causing confusion. not your fault ferno)

'