Zhei versus zhe for 这

[Dawei3]

In this forum, https://www.chinese-forums.com/forums/topic/58282-effective-exercises-for-learning-with-a-private-tutor/?tab=comments#comment-452781 text from DeFrancis was posted.  

 

For the pinyin of 这, DeFrancis uses zhei rather than zhe.  I discussed zhei versus zhe with friends from the South & North of China and they thought it was really funny.  They couldn't think of when they say zhei versus zhe.  One hesitated as to whether she said "zhei," but then she realized she did.  They both have good English skills and I noted we do the same thing in English, i.e., "a" is usually said with a short A sound, but sometimes we say it with long A when we want to clarify or be explicit.  

 

When speaking Chinese, I use both zhei and zhe, but I've never thought about when I use one versus the other.  I can think of some examples.  E.g., I'd say zhe ge xingqi, ni you shijian...  

However, when I want something from a restaurant menu, I'd point to it and say "wo xiang yao zhei ge."  

 

Is there a general rule/custom for using zhei versus zhe pronunciation of 这?   

 

(those who want a fun conversation with Chinese friends, ask them about this). 

 

(That Chinese friends couldn't think of when they use zhei versus zhe isn't unusual.  Before posting this question, I googled "a" pronunciation in English and saw a post about how we vary how we say "the", something I hadn't thought of until I read it.  i.e., "the" dog versus "thee" hour.  As an American, I almost always use a long "e" in "the hour," but I never realized this.  This may be why my friends thought the question was so funny, i.e., an American asking them about something in Chinese they hadn't considered...).  

[Tomsima]

Hopefully I am right in saying this, but I believe you will never hear 'zhei' used in official putonghua broadcasts, as the standard is 'zhe'. the same is true for 'nei' and 'na'. That being said, the choice of such wording is also very oral, so in official, formal speeches and broadcasts they might be avoided in favour of phrases like 此，此類，如此 etc. and thus the formal-ness of 'zhe' might not be as clear to a native speaker.

Defrancis writes from a Beijing perspective; I wonder if he would record 'lei' for 那 and 'zei' for 這 if writing from a southern province...

[889]

Let's note that the same issue arises with 那/哪.

 

Let's also note that DeFrancis addresses this in a footnote in Beginning Chinese, at page 34:

 

"The Specifiers nǎ, nà and zhè usually become něi, nèi, and zhèi before Measure words."

[Publius]

What's so funny about it?  It's all in the dictionary.

[889]

Myself, I would almost always say zhèi个人 or nèi个人, but usually nǎ个人.

 

Then there's also zhè儿 and zhà儿, and I usually use the latter: zhà儿没有什么好东西吃. But always zhè里.

[Dawei3]

On 4/28/2019 at 11:11 AM, Publius said:

What's so funny about it? 

It may be because I'm a foreigner asking them about a simple aspect of Chinese for which they didn't know the answer.  When I first asked about zhe/zhei, one even said 可能方言.  Obviously, it's not just a dialect issue, but the question clearly surprised her.  

 

They also likely never look at 这 in a dictionary, just like I never look at "the" in the dictionary (probably never in my life until your post).  I just know when to say the/thee as a native speaker.  Before posting this, I never thought about the rules for use of the/thee.  My friends and I aren't language teachers or linguists, so we don't study our own languages.   I delight in learning things about English thru my interactions with Chinese friends and they likely feel the same way.    

 

On 4/27/2019 at 8:10 PM, Tomsima said:

'zhei' used in official putonghua broadcasts,

Several friends noted zhe is more formal.   

 

On 4/27/2019 at 9:04 PM, 889 said:

become něi, nèi, and zhèi before Measure words."

 

Even though DeFrancis said zhei is used before measure words, none of my friends mentioned this. 

 

Now, I'm going to be listening for zhe/zhei in conversations.  If anyone else asks Chinese friends about this, it will be interesting to hear about their reactions. 

 

 

 

 

[Publius]

On 4/28/2019 at 11:17 PM, 889 said:

Then there's also zhè儿 and zhà儿

Not related to the topic but the number 二 is usually pronounced àr despite its pinyin spelling èr.

[Dawei3]

12 hours ago, Publius said:

àr despite its pinyin spelling èr.

Cool!  This is another thing I say, but I never realized it.  

 

A slightly related topic:  An excellent video on how/why spoken English doesn't match its spelling:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqLiRu34kWo&feature=youtu.be 

 

The video may give those who teach English more insight on explaining our strange spelling.  I had heard parts of this previously, but I didn't realize there were so many reasons for weird English spelling.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[889]

"Even though DeFrancis said zhei is used before measure words, none of my friends mentioned this."

 

You don't have to take the word of the foreigner. The dictionary entry Publius posted says the same.

[edelweis]

19 hours ago, Dawei3 said:

zhei is used before measure words

I thought that pronunciation zhei was a contraction of "zhe yi" (I don't have any evidence or reference for this).

Do people use pronunciation zhei, nei when the noun is obviously plural?

 

[889]

 You mean, as in something like zhèi些人 or nèi种艺术家?

[edelweis]

yes.

[889]

我送你zhèi两本书 sounds fine to me.

 

[edelweis]

ok then my theory doesn't match reality

 

[889]

Languages always present these sorts of conundrums.

 

There's no doubt a history behind it, an historical basis of some kind. But it'd take some work to unravel.

[Dawei3]

On 4/30/2019 at 11:55 AM, 889 said:

The dictionary entry Publius posted says the same.

Publius's posting of the dictionary was useful.  However, I was looking beyond this in regards to what people say in everyday life and variations in usage.  For many language issues, there isn't just one "essential" truth.  What is considered acceptable usage can vary greatly.  

 

To take an English example:  If you come to the US and say "bottle" according to the way the American Heritage Dictionary says is "correct", people will think you are weird.  You show them a copy of the dictionary to "prove" you are saying bottle correctly and they'll still think you're weird.  Dictionaries are useful, but they don't always reflect how people actually speak.

 

Or another example: If you teach someone to say "thank you" according to the dictionary, they'll say "thank you" in an intelligible way, but not a natural way because in the US, people generally say "than kyou."  You can bring a dictionary to prove to everyone they are speaking incorrectly, but when they're not thinking about it, they'll still going to say "than kyou."

 

With friends I've asked about zhe/zhei since I posted, most react like if you ask an English speaker when they say "the" or "thee", i.e., they never think about it.  However, some noted that in formal situations and when giving formal talks, zhe is preferred (even before measure words), as Tomsina mentioned.  They also noted as a foreigner, no one will really care which one you use.  However, I'm sometimes in formal situations, so it was helpful to hear their perspectives.