Coronavirus - those in China, and general discussion

[realmayo]

On 12/31/2022 at 4:32 PM, Flickserve said:

My issue is that one cannot say vaccines are ineffective.

I think if you scroll up you'll find that you told me I was wrong to say we may never know how effective three shots of Chinese vaccines are currently (given that (i) a long time has elapsed since third shot, and (ii) the data from China is unlikely to be reliable). There was also some snideness re. 'sorry to disappoint you'.

 

On 12/31/2022 at 11:30 PM, TheBigZaboon said:

today's "reality" is clashing with yesterday's "reality"

And on an even shorter timescale: when the vaccines first emerged the experts appeared confident that they would stop infections. Most people have forgotten that inconvenient truth. It doesn't mean the vaccines were a waste of time, it just means there's been a constant 'shifting of the goalposts' when it comes to vaccine advocacy. I think that's because so many people have chosen to be on 'Team Vaccine' or 'Team anti-Vax'.

 

[alantin]

On 1/1/2023 at 10:14 AM, Insectosaurus said:

In Sweden there were quite large important immigrant suburbs where vaccination rates were too low. Several regions made personal calls, visits, etc. to the population of these areas to increase public understanding of how the vaccines work and clear out misunderstandings. I don't know if there has been an evaluation of the tactic, but as I understand it it worked quite well. Have similar campaigns been tried in China? The more personal, door-to-door tactic, that is. Rather than offering elders money, etc.

I don’t know about China but here in Finland it was the same. Especially the community leaders were contacted to spread the information and info and instructions were translated to many languages for them. I haven’t looked for any research on the results.

 

I believe China has those neighborhood committees and villagers committees in place which should be ideal for this type of campaign.

[alantin]

On 1/1/2023 at 10:50 AM, realmayo said:

when the vaccines first emerged the experts appeared confident that they would stop infections.

Where was this? At the the time I mostly followed Finnish news about the vaccinations and the progress of the pandemic and never saw this kind of messaging. It was always “to reduce severe cases and deaths and to reduce load on the healthcare system”.

 

I have never heard anyone here say they expected not to get sick at all after getting the shots. Especially since they kept saying from the beginning that you only got good level of immunity after at-least two shots and the expectation was that we likely would be seeing yearly booster campaigns for years.

[Jan Finster]

On 1/1/2023 at 10:22 AM, alantin said:

I have never heard anyone here say they expected not to get sick at all after getting the shots. Especially since they kept saying from the beginning that you only got good level of immunity after at-least two shots and the expectation was that we likely would be seeing yearly booster campaigns for years.

 

As a disclaimer: I am pro vaccine especially for the early strains and I had 3 shots. I never knowingly had COVID.

 

However, virtually all my colleauges had COVID 1-2x despite 3-4 vaccinations. None were in ICU or died, but several were quite ill and some have long COVID now. They are not the super vulnerable population, as they are mostly around 20-55 years old. I also know quite a few anti-vaxxers in the same age range and they got just as sick as the vaccinated and recovered OK. As I am openly pro vaccination, I would love to contend that the vaccination was essential for me and my colleagues, but from the limited data set of people I know, I honestly cannot make that claim for 20-55 years olds.

 

[realmayo]

It's certainly possible that the media got over-enthusiastic, but the hopes expressed were that vaccines, rather than infections, would provide herd immunity: that their efficiency would be so high that innoculated people wouldn't pass on the virus. I remember this was very relevant to healthcare workers visiting sick patients at the end of 2020. I certainly remember the broad disappointment when it was later shown that they didn't prevent transmission, at least not of variants. People really thought vaccines would curb the spread of the virus, but in fact, most people in the world will probably get Covid at some point, perhaps multiple points, in their lives.

 

Edit: to be clear, I'm not saying that these claims were made for each dose of vaccine, but rather for the  community pro-vaccination messaging (which I thoroughly supported!).

 

 

 

Hopes are soaring that a Covid vaccine is within reach, following news that an interim analysis has shown Pfizer/BioNTech’s candidate to have 90% efficacy in protecting people from transmission of the virus in global trials.

 

 

 

Immunologists now hope vaccines will prevent transmission, a finding that would drastically reduce the virus’s spread

 

 

[alantin]

On 1/1/2023 at 11:48 AM, Jan Finster said:

However, virtually all my colleauges had COVID 1-2x despite 3-4 vaccinations. None were in ICU or died, but several were quite ill and some have long COVID now. They are not the super vulnerable population, as they are mostly around 20-55 years old. I also know quite a few anti-vaxxers in the same age range and they got just as sick as the vaccinated and recovered OK. As I am openly pro vaccination, I would love to contend that the vaccination was essential for me and my colleagues, but from the limited data set of people I know, I honestly cannot make that claim for 20-55 years olds.

 

Here nine out of ten deaths were over 65 years old, but that leaves 10% who were younger and the youngest one in the statistics was between 20-24 years of age. At the time I remember reading quite a few news about how it was not only a risk for older people but that there was a real chance that it would take you to the ICU or kill you even if you were young. Most of my friends have also had it several times and my uncle is the only person I know who has long covid (he is between 60 and 70) and the acute illness itself was quite bad on him. He is sure he would have died if he hadn't had the vaccines.

 

The statistics tell the real big picture, not anyone's subjective experience. Especially, like someone already said, as the medical professionals call anyone who doesn't need to be hospitalized a "mild case" and that may not be the experience of someone who felt for a week like they were hit with a sledgehammer and lost their sense of taste and smell to top it off.

[realmayo]

On 1/1/2023 at 10:22 AM, alantin said:

The statistics tell the real big picture

 

Partly my fault for helping take this thead down a rabbit hole but: I suppose the real issue is that yes, in time we'll probably have a better view of the nuanced rights or wrongs of vaccinating children, of lockdowns, and all these measures, as long as the political will exists to ask those questions. That political will almost certainly does not exist in China!

 

Instead the last three years must be framed as a Party success. Any idea what that framing might look like now?

[alantin]

On 1/1/2023 at 12:32 PM, realmayo said:

Instead the last three years must be framed as a Party success. Any idea what that framing might look like now?

 

Something like this:

 

Quote

the country enters a “new phase” in its approach to the pandemic ... officials indignantly denied “rumours” of pandemic deaths, repeating claims that China managed the virus better than other countries, demonstrating the superiority of China’s political system, and insisting anyone who says otherwise is either an ill-intentioned foreigner, a traitor to the people or a paid provocateur. ... reversal was a rational, science-based and well-prepared decision and “The changing virus variant, accelerated mass vaccination and enhanced medical resources all laid out the foundation for a long planned and orderly Covid response adjustment.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jan/01/xi-jinpings-reputation-in-china-and-his-standing-in-the-world-may-not-survive-this-covid-disaster