So many meanings for Chinese words!

[Mike]

Looking in the CEDICT dictionary there are 39 English translations for the sound shi4: 11 of which have Simplified Chinese characters. Many of the meanings are clearly different from each other. I understand that if I could read Chinese characters (maybe in 10 years time or so :-) I would see the meanings intended, but what about in spoken Chinese. I realise that context is always very important in language - no difference in English - but with so many meanings for one sound (like ‘shi4’) can things get confusing, or would they get confusing if other supporting words are not chosen carefully?

Can someone put a light on for me at the end of the tunnel?

Cheers,

Mike

[Ferno]

Many of those "shi4"s cannot stand alone.

for example, near the top of the list:

事 shì /matter/thing/item/work/affair/

Chinese wouldn't know what that means. If you said it by itself they would probably assume it was the "affirmative" or "yes" form of shi4. But this 事 shi4 is used as a PART of other, two-syllable words... such as combining it with another syllable/character:

同 tóng /like/same/similar/together/alike/with/

So if you combine /like/same/similar/together/alike/with/+ /matter/thing/item/work/affair/

you get tóngshì (tong2shi4)

同事 which means colleague, or co-worker

and then 同 can be used to make 同志 (together + purpose) to make "comrade" (slang has turned it into "homosexual" though, so watch out with it ) .... so you can see the kind of "match up" that Chinese uses to create words

Dictionaries can trick you into thinking that things have meaning by themselves, when in fact they do not.

tong2 and shi4 both have many "unbound" meanings, but when you put them together they will only get one meaning that makes sense.

Chinese, however, is generally significantly more ambigious and has more homonyms than other languages (I think all Asian languages are, compared to European langauges - Chinese may be the hardest hit because complete Character-based writing might have hurt it more)

Context is thus still important. Even with two-syllable words with the same tones you will get homonyms, and tones are often fudged in fast speech. And of course, music has no tones so song-writers must use more two-syllable words which narrows things down more (tong shi can only mean either "colleague" or "at the same time", even without tones..."xiang xin" can only mean "believe"... "gong zuo" can only mean "work" etc...) - along with using simple, less complicated language with less meaningful lyrics to avoid confusion.

As a learner this can confuse you but...surprisingly help you, since you only have to learn a couple hundred syllables which are used to make every single word. Since you already know "tong" and "shi" from many other, unrelated words, it is much easier to "imprint" and relate this in your memory [plus the tone indicators, I just use the numbers in my head] than learning Mitarbeiter in German or something

[nipponman]

You're right, 事 can't be used in the position of a verb, but it can be used by itself:

wo3 ting1bu dong3 na4 jian4 shi4.

[Ferno]

of course i don't know anything and I didn't even understand your sentance, but couldn't that last part be "降世"?

[gougou]

Having a deja-vu...

BTW, you can apply the same system about memorizing components of words to the German "Mitarbeiter". It consists of the prefix "mit", the word "Arbeit" and the suffix "er", all fairly common.

[beirne]

Don't get hung up on sounds of individual syllables. Look at real words, many of which have multiple syllables, and you will find that the homonym problem isn't that bad.

Also, as mentioned earlier, many instances of the shi4 syllable can't stand on their own as a single word. I looked it up in the ABC dictionary in Wenlin just 20 characters pronounced shi4 in the to 3000 characters. Only three of them can stand on their own: 是 (to be), 事 (thing, event, affair), and 试 (try, test). I have never confused the three words. It is no harder than the sound of "be" referring to existing, a bee, and the letter B in English.

[Ferno]

Having a deja-vu...

BTW' date=' you can apply the same system about memorizing components of words to the German "Mitarbeiter". It consists of the prefix "mit", the word "Arbeit" and the suffix "er", all fairly common.[/quote']

yes i know but what I meant is that the amount of syllables is small. German has consonant clusters (which Mandarin has none of)... ending consonants (which Mandarin has very little of) etc... so you can make a very large amount of syllables (in fact, you must, because there's no tonal differentiation) while Mandarin only has something like 200.

Mitarbeiter was a bad example (coworker is a compound meaning word in european languages anyway), but even then you have "mit" "ar" "bei" "ter". With "tong shi" you only have two syllables, and you have seen both "tong" and "shi" many times - your mind remembers things much easier when it connects new things to things already hard-wired in long term memory. Just like multiple-choice questions are easier because seeing a correct answer "triggers" recognition.

and back to "Mitarbeiter"... with other european multi-syallable words... "despite" "desperate" "forum" "family" "message" "enhance" "options" etc... (in whatever European language you want) you can't divide the words into meanings (morphemes?), and/or into often-repeated syllables.

I am still undecided whether the syllable repetition and building-block style of Mandarin (drawbacks: ambigious and context-heavy + tones) makes it easier to learn than the unambigious, tone-less European languages (drawbacks: a lot of sounds and long words to memorize along with inflected grammar). What I do know is that the simplicity of the syllables allows me, a very new learner, to successfully understand (and put into pinyin if I can write fast enough!) almost every single syllable (tones aside, that takes practice) that a native speaker says, provided they speak clearly and not too fast. With French, English, Russian, European languages in general... the syllables would be too slurred together and you would not be able to transcribe the speech without actually knowing the language and recognizing words. This allows a very new Mandarin learner to enjoy some early and significant (if possibly misleading) success at understanding even fast native speech because they can easily pick up words.. "wo" "ye" "shuo" "yi" "bu" whatever... and assume them to be their most common meanings "I, also, speak, one, not" (respectively)

oops, looks like I wrote a book again

(oh, and I am not talking about writing, only speaking..)

[Ferno]

Only three of them can stand on their own: 是 (to be), 事 (thing, event, affair), and 试 (try, test). I have never confused the three words. It is no harder than the sound of "be" referring to existing, a bee, and the letter B in English.

hmm... I'm not sure, but wouldn't there be a possible confusion if 是 "to be" and 试 "try" are both verbs (I am, I try..?). Or is 试 not a verb?

[gougou]

hmm... I'm not sure, but wouldn't there be a possible confusion if 是 "to be" and 试 "try" are both verbs (I am, I try..?). Or is 试 not a verb?

It is, but mostly used in sentences where 是 wouldn't work. If you hear "Wo3 shi4shi4 kan4." or "Wo3 shi4 xue2sheng1.", it should be quite obvious which is which.

But in general, there is possibility for confusion, and even native speakers talking to each other sometimes have to explain what they were saying, either by repeating with exaggerated pronounciation or, where that is of no avail, clarify which word they were referring to (e.g. 尝试的试).

[Ferno]

It is' date=' but mostly used in sentences where 是 wouldn't work. If you hear "Wo3 shi4shi4 kan4." or "Wo3 shi4 xue2sheng1.", it should be quite obvious which is which.

But in general, there is possibility for confusion, and even native speakers talking to each other sometimes have to explain what they were saying, either by repeating with exaggerated pronounciation or, where that is of no avail, clarify which word they were referring to (e.g. 尝试的试).[/quote']

I am assuming the shi4shi4 was a mistake, right?

and about 尝试的试 (chang2shi4 de shi4) is that like saying "the "shi4" in "chang2shi4"? I think I read something about that a long time ago, that Chinese have to clarify themselves a lot by saying "the X in XY", etc...

and if 尝试 chang2shi4 means "to try" in the dictionary, why don't people just use the two-syllable form? Do the one syllable "try" and the two syllable "try" have different uses?

[Du4 Ke4]

What amazes me is that, generally speaking (pardon the pun), that the 'chinese' written language has not changed for so many centuries. Scripts can still be read perfectly from thousands of years ago. The writing would reflect the gramatical structure of the sentences and as this has not changed combined with the fact that it is the most spoken language in the world, it is starting to make me think that I must be suffering from mild mental retardation when I find it difficult to see how nonphonetic languages can be learned at all.

The other thing I find amazing is how anyone can understand a chinese person talking at full speed and how the hell they can spit out the tones at 50 words a second. Especially 'ri'.

The good thing is that as older learners, we dont have to learn about the concepts of the world.. only the language whereas children have to learn the language and how it applies to the world. Although they are exposed to it for years before they really start learning it.

I guess I will persevere with my studyies and shut up.

Cheers,

DuKe

[kudra]

.... 'chinese' written language has not changed for so many centuries. Scripts can still be read perfectly from thousands of years ago.

1. I am not an expert' date=' but why are there separate courses(eg. 3-4th year in University that teach classical Chinese.

The writing would reflect the gramatical structure of the sentences and as this has not changed combined with the fact that it is the most spoken language in the world, it is starting to make me think that I must be suffering from mild mental retardation when I find it difficult to see how nonphonetic languages can be learned at all.

1. But even modern Chinese writing has patterns and compressed forms, alternate vocab that a native speaker would not uses in normal speech.

2. I would say non-phonetic writing system.

...whereas children have to learn the language and how it applies to the world.

Although they are exposed to it for years before they really start learning it.

Again' date=' by it I assume you mean how to read and write. Presumably kids already know the the spoken language.

So in terms of learning the spoken language, I bet a child finds learning spoken Chinese or English equally easy. As for reading and writing, that probably gets harder for anyone if done as an adult, although I will grant you that adult learning of non-phonetic writing systems is harder. For a kid who already knows the spoken language, or is soaking up new spoken or written vocab in school writting is presumably harder in Chinese than English. If it weren't the characters would not have needed to be simplified.

An interesting development is that at schools like Yale and Columbia, there are now separate sections of introductory and intermediate Chinese, 1 for non-native speakers, and 1 for learners who know the spoken language from home or community but not how to read and write.

[url']http://www.columbia.edu/cu/ealac/courses.html[/url]

Back in the early '80 this was a not the case and we non-heritage students grumbled, but of course no one was forcing us to enroll in the class in the first place, so it was not serious grumbling.

[Mike]

The good thing is that as older learners, we don’t have to learn about the concepts of the world.. only the language

You may be correct Du4 Ke4, but it hasn't worked like that for me. I know very little about China and the Chinese (both the language and the people - not that I want to lump such a vast Country in to one 'people'). I have found, studying French and Russian, that a knowledge and understanding of the Country, the people, the culture, the history and so on, are crucial to understanding and learning the language which is inextricably linked with all the above.

For the replies to my original post, thank you everyone for your contribution and links. It is clear, those that have spent time studying and learning.....understand, and those that haven't... don't :-)))) So I'll do what does not come easy to me and just plough on with learning and hopefully things will become clear in time!

I'm not sure if the following is strictly connected to this thread but I thought it might be interesting.......

I can read this...

“Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.”

As easily as this....

“According to a research at Cambridge University, it doesn’t matter in what order the letters in a word are, the only important thing is that the first and last letter be at the right place. The rest can be a total mess and you can still read it without problem. This is because the human mind does not read every letter by itself, but the word as a whole.”

And this is also fairly easy....

Whenoneknowsthelanguageoneknowswhichiswhichandoneknowswherethewordboundariesare.

Original post by Quest Here

[beirne]

hmm... I'm not sure, but wouldn't there be a possible confusion if 是 "to be" and 试 "try" are both verbs (I am, I try..?). Or is 试 not a verb?

I thought of that while writing, but the two words have a different enough meaning that context normally makes it clear.

I am assuming the shi4shi4 was a mistake, right?

It is a real word, meaning to have a try. I actually know shi4 more in the way gougou used it in "Wo3 shi4shi4 kan4" than as a standalone word.

What amazes me is that, generally speaking (pardon the pun), that the 'chinese' written language has not changed for so many centuries. Scripts can still be read perfectly from thousands of years ago.

It actually has changed. It became a classical written form called wenyanwen that for a long time was used for all formal written communications. It didn't really match how people spoke, though, and in the 1900's a modern form called baihua came into common use. Someone who isn't trained in reading wenyanwen will have a hard time with it.

The situation would be sort of like an Italian speaker reading classics from the Roman Empire and Middle Ages in Latin. The written Latin language hadn't changed for 2000 years and an Italian can guess what a lot of it means, but they would use the current form of Latin, Italian, for any real writing. My point is that the use of wenyanwen and Latin were both artificial standards and both the written and spoken languages changed underneath them anyhow.

For more on the difficulties of wenyanwen read section 6 of David Moser's excellent article Why Chinese is so damn hard. My favorite line is that you can't understand classical Chinese unless you already know what it says.

[gougou]

I am assuming the shi4shi4 was a mistake, right?

Er, was it? I'd say no, but if there's something wrong with it, please point it out.

and about 尝试的试 (chang2shi4 de shi4) is that like saying "the "shi4" in "chang2shi4"?

Exactly.

and if 尝试 chang2shi4 means "to try" in the dictionary, why don't people just use the two-syllable form? Do the one syllable "try" and the two syllable "try" have different uses?

I can't tell you about different uses, that's a question I wonder about often enough myself, but in general, people always use simpler forms, no? I suppose if you'd use the two-syllable form all the time (e.g. 事情 instead of 事) you'd sound very (or too) formal.

I also believe to have read somewhere that Chinese used to be a monosyllabic language a long time ago, and used to have 6 tones, but I'm not sure about that, maybe somebody else more knowledgeable about history can fill in here.

[beirne]

I also believe to have read somewhere that Chinese used to be a monosyllabic language a long time ago, and used to have 6 tones, but I'm not sure about that, maybe somebody else more knowledgeable about history can fill in here.

The classical form is fairly word-monosyllabic, but there is some debate as to whether the spoken form was or not. There was more differentiation between syllables in the past, though, with consonant clusters and the like. The extra consonants faded away and were replaced with tones. At one time Mandarin actually had 8 tones.

[Ferno]

The other thing I find amazing is how anyone can understand a chinese person talking at full speed and how the hell they can spit out the tones at 50 words a second. Especially 'ri'.

I am really starting to think that context is more important than tones.

It is' date=' but mostly used in sentences where 是 wouldn't work. If you hear "Wo3 shi4shi4 kan4." or "Wo3 shi4 xue2sheng1."' date=' it should be quite obvious which is which.[/quote'''] I am assuming the shi4shi4 was a mistake, right?

Er, was it? I'd say no, but if there's something wrong with it, please point it out.

oh no sorry I'm just confused... we were talking about how single-syllable "是" (to be) and "试" (try) might be confused, but then you used two "shi4"s in "wo3 shi4shi4 kan4" (I try to see), as if it is 试试? Or am I misunderstanding?

I can't tell you about different uses, that's a question I wonder about often enough myself, but in general, people always use simpler forms, no? I suppose if you'd use the two-syllable form all the time (e.g. 事情 instead of 事) you'd sound very (or too) formal.

oh. I thought two syllable variants were always used, to avoid confusion?

ie (and I'm using a dictionary right now, I know only very little characters...) Chinese would use 昆虫 kun1chong2 for "insect", right? Not just use 虫 because it has the dictionary definition of insect too... isn't that what this whole thread is about?

[beirne]

oh no sorry I'm just confused... we were talking about how single-syllable "是" (to be) and "试" (try) might be confused, but then you used two "shi4"s in "wo3 shi4shi4 kan4" (I try to see), as if it is 试试? Or am I misunderstanding?

试试 technically has a different meaning than 试. 试试 is as a bit softer, meaning something like "give it a try" rather than just plain "try" and is more of a colloquial usage. In gougou's two sentences, though, the context solves the confusion. Interchanging the two shi's, even in single character form, yields ungrammatical or nonsensical sentences in both cases. 试 generally requires some sort of verb phrase after it and 是 is usually followed by a noun or sometimes an adjective.

BTW, to give another example of confusion in English, "try" can mean both "to attempt" or "to investigate and decide", like in trying a case. It is also a prefix indicating the number three. Homonyms generally aren't a big problem.

[Ferno]

oh I see, I didn't know about the "shi4shi4" = give it a try

(does the technique of "doubling" the verb have this "softening" effect on everything? or this just a special case)

it also confused me because there's no point in contrasting 是 shi4 and 试 shi4shi4 since two-syllable words are less ambigious anyway.

yes i know homonyms aren't generally a big problem but they are a bit larger problem in Chinese than English because Chinese have regular occurance of the "blah blah blah X blah blah...you know, X like in XY" construct if you understand what I meant

[nipponman]

....trying a case[/b]

I've never heard this expression before. I'm surprised that only 试 and 是 are the only shi4 that can be used as verbs 弒 seems like a rather cool (but kinda useless one)