The first thing to go when forgetting Chinese

[abcdefg]

I left China in a big rush at the end of January 2019 when the Covid outbreak was just becoming known. Had to fly an indirect, stop-and-start path because of flight cancellations. Eventually managed to get back to Texas, my Stateside home. Had not lived here in any consistent manner for over a decade while exploring China and learning its language, history, culture and ways.

 

Fell in love with the people, the cuisine, the tea. Thought I would probably live out the rest of my days there. Back in America, I initially maintained robust long-distance relationships, chatting regularly with Chinese friends who were still in country. We sent snapshots back and forth, did video chats.  Gradually there became less to say, and we contacted each other less frequently, relying more on written messages. The connecting ties became stretched and began to feel somewhat strained. The messages became shorter. 

 

Locally I have spoken Chinese sporadically with staff at Chinese restaurants. Once or twice, when visiting in larger Texas cities, I've had a foot massage and conversed with the technicians. Watched the occasional Chinese movie. Read some Chinese-language news stories online. Did not read start reading Chinese novels. Never did that, even in China during my "Chinese language prime." 

 

Would have been smart to sign up for on-line tutoring and really step up my reading. But I got busy with resuming my western life and dropped the ball on keeping up my Chinese. 

 

My personal language proficiency was slow in coming, hard won. I was not a "natural" blessed with huge talent. Had to work hard. But my Chinese has been distressingly fast in disappearing. Now after nearly two years, it is ragged and rusty. In another year it will mostly be gone. My Chinese was not self-taught. I was blessed with excellent face-to-face teachers, and I invested maximum effort in learning from them. Plus, I used the language fearlessly with native friends and when out and about in the streets, gradually smoothing out the rough spots by the process of making lots of mistakes and benefitting from immediate and spontaneous native-speaker corrections. 

 

I've tried to think analytically about the areas of proficiency that have decayed the most rapidly. Far and away, where I now fall short the worst is in using the right tones. I just get them wrong in conversation. This obscures what I'm trying to say and requires that I repeat and sometimes rephrase. I often must "finger-write" the character on the palm of my hand. Instead of being fluent, I am butchering the language. 

 

I still tend to surprise Mandarin-speaking Chinese Americans by using colloquial Chinese pretty well. They can tell that I have not just learned in a classroom or from a textbook. But the tones are decaying faster than the rest of the package. If I quiz myself about what tones are involved in such and such a word or phrase, then listen to a native speaker on YouTube or some such saying the same passage, it is obvious that my tones are frequently off, significantly off.

 

When learning Chinese, starting about 2006 in Beijing, I made the tones an integral part of any acquired new word. I didn't know the word until I also knew its tones. I realized early on that the tone wasn't just something that could be "tacked-on" later. I didn't make the mistake of thinking I would learn to read and write the words now and go back later and master their tones. So, it surprises me somewhat now to see that the tones are vanishing so fast. 

 

Perhaps part of the reason is that I have always had a pretty good ear. I could appreciate how the tones and the phrasing of native speech should sound. I did lots of child-like imitation of the native speakers in my life. Shameless and unquestioning "monkey-see-monkey-do." And I was surrounded by Chinese 24/7, avoiding most contact with English-speaking foreigners.  

 

I am posting this personal observation just to report the phenomenon, not trying to draw any deep linguistic conclusions. Was simply reflecting and thinking about it this morning. I wonder if this is the way in which Chinese language proficiency usually dies. Anyone else had experience in that area? What is the first thing to go when you stop playing a musical instrument after years of piano or violin lessons? 

[杰.克]

You need to build a mini china for yourself back in Texas. Granted it's not easy, and will involve sacrifices, but it's possible if you are committed. It's not a stretch for me to say, that I speak more Chinese now (back in UK) then I did whilst living in Beijing for 3ish years (fell into a Laowai english speaking friendship circle trap).

 

I have actively sculpted out a Chinese life for myself in the UK. I got a low paying but highly satisfying job in a Chinese language office environment, i moved into a homestay for a year with a Chinese family, i purposefully made friends with local students, attended events, if i see a chinese takeaway i make efforts to go in and chat with people, i even go to the local Chinese church about once a month with my ayi from my homestay.

 

I consider myself to live in the perfect world now - i speak Chinese all day, but can still go see my parents in a 15 min car trip. I talk about three kingdoms with my colleagues but can still pop to the shops and get a sandwich i like. 

 

I wish you luck my friend, Ive seen your posts on here for many years and your a committed person. I have no doubt it you will make it work. I was a bit shell shocked when I came back, but I now feel happy and more settled than i have in my whole life.

[realmayo]

I've had a couple of five-year breaks. For me speaking skills are the first to fall and the quickest (and easiest) to regain. I reckon less than a month of heavy listening and heavy speaking practice (all completely doable online), and you'll feel back to normal. I think when you get rusty, the frustration you feel in struggling where previously you didn't struggle actually magnifies the feelings of 退步。

 

Edit: I'm sure I read something that, in theory, even when not using a language or a skill, you're not 100% wasting your time, the brain is somehow firming some of this stuff up. So yes, if you take a long break, you've got to spend time catching up. But some elements of the language may have been fermenting and maturing in your mind all along, throughout your fallow period.

[abcdefg]

Appreciate the helpful comments. I've been spoiled by having China travel as a stimulus to learning. Eventually, living there full time provided even more impetus. Your comments make sense, @杰克 and @realmayo. I will regroup and find ways to keep up at least core language skills. 

[Tomsima]

Having now been back in the UK since late 2018, I've noticed the exact same, it is tones that go first - I said 乖 when I meant 怪 earlier today, a mistake I remember I used to make early on in my Chinese journey, was gutted to hear it crop up for the first time in a long time today! As the others have said, though, speaking comes back quickly with exposure - even after many years.

[anonymoose]

I agree that there is a tendency for the tones to get rusty.

 

I'm not sure if this is specific to native speakers of toneless languages or is a more general phenomenon. I have also learned tones and rigorously applied them since I started learning Chinese, but as I have been outside of a Chinese learning environment for several years, I find tonal accuracy has deteriorated, especially for the less frequently used words.

[carlo]

I last visited mainland China in November 2019, and I'm no longer around Mandarin speakers at all. I haven't felt a deterioration in my language skills yet. I listen to podcasts, Youtubers, audiobooks etc almost daily. My reading has got slower though, the lack of spacing between characters in particular trips me up more than it used to.

 

Since you asked, I believe most musical practice is mental. One thing I learned is that as long as you can imagine yourself playing in your head, you can practice anywhere. In my case the first thing to go for me is kinesthetic / spatial awareness, ie I can't find the keys, which isn't good if you're sight reading, but the aural memory lasts longer.

[abcdefg]

Lots of excellent techniques and tools here. I've learned some new approaches, ways to slow down the forgetting process. Thanks to all who have responded. What a great forum this is! 

[Publius]

Hope our resident chef's cooking skills haven't suffered too much

[imron]

Maybe it's time to write that book abcdefg?

[NinjaTurtle]

On 11/10/2021 at 9:37 AM, abcdefg said:

...my Chinese has been distressingly fast in disappearing. Now after nearly two years, it is ragged and rusty. In another year it will mostly be gone

 

ABC,

 

Like I always tell my students, you have to do three things: practice, practice, and practice! Find one or more fluent (native) Chinese speakers who speak English at a high level. Set up a ‘language exchange’ for once a day, 20 minutes of English only, then 20 minutes of Chinese only. (You will be surprised how much this will help you with your Chinese.)

 

Ideally, you could do this in person. Or you can do it online. Even if you have to park your car outside McDonald’s at 3 AM, use the free McDonald’s wifi, and use Skype over your iPhone to talk to someone in China, it will be worth it.

 

Get some conversations started. I have a list of about 40 topics:

 

https://www.chinese-forums.com/forums/topic/58423-what-is-fluency-listening-vs-speaking/

 

(My list is in the sixth post from the bottom.) Make sure you pick topics that both you and your partner are interested in. (There is nothing worse than discussing a topic you are not interested in.)

 

Let me know if this works for you. If you need more ideas on how to structure time in a language exchange, please do not hesitate to ask.

 

[abcdefg]

Thanks, @NinjaTurtle -- Another excellent suggestion. I know you are right. I will work on implementing this advice. Must confess that I have been lazy about it for a variety of reasons, none of which are compelling. They have just been excuses. This thread has helped me kick myself in the rear and get re-energized. Appreciate all the good help.  

[alantin]

On the topic of tutors and rear-kicking, how about getting a packet deal of lessons and scheduling at least a month worth of them in advance? You’ll need really good excuses not to attend something you’ve paid in advance.

[abcdefg]

On 11/13/2021 at 4:18 PM, alantin said:

You’ll need really good excuses not to attend something you’ve paid in advance.

 

Good suggestion! You're right about a cash investment being a stimulus for follow-through. I'll first try a DIY approach combined with scouting around for one or two local live native speakers. 

 

Today I watched a couple of excellent YouTube videos suggested in another thread by @StChris. They are brief (under 15 minutes) and give a "day in the life of" portrait of people with interesting occupations. Watched the one about the Blind Masseuse in Wuhan and the couple that operates a busy Beijing breakfast stall. Excellent material. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Plk7_W-XKFU

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6J88fJoeYw 

[Flickserve]

On 11/13/2021 at 11:23 PM, abcdefg said:

They have just been excuses

 

I wish I had your tenacity 

[NinjaTurtle]

On 11/13/2021 at 8:23 AM, abcdefg said:

Another excellent suggestion.

 

Hey ABC, I forgot to mention one more thing. Set up language exchanges with several different people. I have found that most people only want to do a language exchange once a week (twice a week if you are lucky). This means potentially setting setting up language exchanges with seven different people, a different person for each day of the week. You can do it!

[abcdefg]

Excellent tip! Thank you. 

[suMMit]

I have never been in this position, but if I was I think I would do a few things. Like others have said, find some native speakers in the area to socialize and do activities with. I would probably watch tons of chinese movies, tv and videos, even if it was just on in the background while I was 打扫ing the房间. As for the language exchange thing, I personally couldn't be bothered to do the English side of it. If money wasn't an object, I would go on italki and book a 30 min to 1 hour lesson with a different teacher every day of the week. I would just randomly pick $5-6/hr (or less) community tutors. I'd have some questions about a topic ready, or an article/text/podcast/video to discuss. I might use a different topic everyday or use the same one with a few different people and be better and better at the topic each time plus get different people's viewpoints. I'd choose male, female, older, younger, southern, northern, mainland, Taiwan, Malaysia, Chinese students living in the Uk... I think this approach would be great for someone at a stage where they where more focused on maintaining than learning new.

[Dawei3]

Like those that posted before, i tend to forget tones more quickly than the phonetics of the word. 
 

I’ve found Chinese speaking toastmasters clubs have helped me tremendously. The Beijing club I used to visit in-person during visits there went online last year, so I joined it. Thru the club, I get great practice and more people want to be language partners than I time. Toastmasters meetings include an ah-counter 哼哈官 and 语法官， so you get feedback on your speaking. In addition, if you give a prepared speech, another member gives you feedback on the talk.

Also, even though I miss much of what is said, I’ve found my comprehension has increased significantly. I suddenly started to realize “I’m understanding them!”  My club is bilingual; we meet every week and alternate languages. I prefer bilingual clubs because the members understand my challenges in learning Chinese and they know I understand theirs. 
 

Clubs welcome guests. If anyone is interested, they can message me. My club meets Sunday morning from 10-12北京时间.  China has over 600 Toastmasters clubs. Toastmasters is an international non-profit focused on helping members with presentation and leadership skills.  Internationally, many also help members learn language (it’s a club’s decision on which language to use)

[abcdefg]

On 11/23/2021 at 11:39 AM, Dawei3 said:

I’ve found Chinese speaking toastmasters clubs have helped me tremendously...Toastmasters meetings include an ah-counter 哼哈官 and 语法官， so you get feedback on your speaking.   

 

That is really interesting! I never gave that sort of activity any thought. What a good idea. Congratulations on following through with that, even on-line.

 

My last year in Kunming, I agreed to give a series of talks to medical audiences in a network of secondary and tertiary hospitals in smaller Yunnan cities and towns. I was part of a four-physician team. The others were native Chinese. It was part of an "outreach" educational project; sort of a good-will gesture from a large teaching hospital in the capital (provincial capital) to help their "little brothers." 

 

I was awful. The talks were very difficult. I couldn't relax, and I made a million stupid mistakes. Embarrassed myself over and over. Teammates and audiences were kind. None-the-less I would hesitate before ever agreeing to do something like that again. (And I'm reasonably accustomed to public speaking back home, using English.)

 

It was an eye opener, as well as being a bit of a disappointment. Had thought it would be easier. To keep going, I had to mentally put it in the category of "Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger."