Another hobby wanting to share the spotlight

[sanchuan]

On 7/28/2023 at 12:54 PM, realmayo said:

Desiring knowledge for knowledge's sake is like desiring money for money's sake or power for power's sake: acquisitive and sad.

Well put. But it's equally acquisitive and sad for us to try and split hairs in hopes of winning disputes that aren't even there: all the usual suspects on this forum have frequently warned against the perils of falling down token-collection rabbit holes (whether words, characters or similar). So, if memory serves, you're preaching to the converted! None of us come here to advocate that language learning should require the compulsive memorisation of lifeless & Dickensian hard facts.

 

If you perhaps meant to pit something like declarative knowledge of random facts (i.e. memorisation & recall) against procedural knowledge of familiar experiences (i.e. appreciation & mastery), then Moshen's description of knowledge for its own sake sounds a lot like to the latter kind. So there may just be some misunderstanding at play there between you. 

 

With regards to the point about social vs non-social use of language, however, I accept I may be in a minority to think that, say, a brief commercial transaction at the market or in a taxi is a less social use of language than being moved by a cri de coeur in someone's poem from centuries ago. That's because I don't believe real-time physical interaction is necessary for language (as opposed to people) to be social. Otherwise asynchronous fora, or any other media really, wouldn't even exist.

 

On 7/28/2023 at 11:19 AM, Moshen said:

Without human interaction there would be no language.  But if you go from that to saying that every encounter with language involves encounters with other people, as RealMayo did, then you're making that an empty, meaningless statement not worth arguing over.

 

I'm not suggesting that any use of language involves encountering people. I'm not even suggesting that any use of language is social (recording/writing a note to oneself is not). I'm suggesting that deliberately recording/writing for other people to read or hear, even if across time and space, is social. In fact, for as long as this very forum is up and publicly accessible, our own words here will remain "social" (or "socially useful") even after you and I are dead. 

[realmayo]

On 7/28/2023 at 9:11 PM, Moshen said:

Knowledge for its own sake has nothing acquisitive about it.  It involves an experience of expansion, of adoration, of delight.

 

If you really enjoyed knowledge for knowledge's sake, then you wouldn't distinguish between knowing about 莊子 and knowing the 837th decimal of pi or the 19th largest connurbation by population density in Costa Rica : you would get the same pleasure from learning any and all of them. If that's the case, fine, I'm quite jealous!

[sanchuan]

@Ledu Chinese society may be less open to cultural integration than America is, but the United States is sui generis in that respect. Europeans (you mentioned Spaniards in your counterexample) may seem just as open on the surface but they, too, can be rather culturally homogeneous, conservative, and provincial, depending where you go. It's just difficult for people who aren't native to a place to integrate fully. 

 

If, in your personal experience, socialising in real life with native Chinese people makes you feel not as welcome or accepted as you wish, you could perhaps consider taking it as an opportunity to challenge their worldview, respectfully advocate for your values and point of view and see where that takes you. You may think doing so will not win you many friends, but you never know. Either way, you're 'othered' no matter what you do, so what have you got to lose? Socialising in the real world is about (civil) confrontation & exchange as much as it is about acceptance & belonging - both are good use for your language skills. 

 

At any rate, there's plenty of Chinese-speaking cultures and peoples outside of the PRC.

[realmayo]

On 7/28/2023 at 11:20 PM, sanchuan said:

But it's equally acquisitive and sad

 

If you look back you'll see I was just trying to suggest that there might be an interesting way of regarding "social purpose" as meaning something broader and more valuable than simply "utilitarian" or whatever, in the context of learning a foreign language. I really believe that human interaction is what gives life most meaning for most people (hence e.g. the urge to photograph-and-share cool stuff that we see on our own, or thrum to the vibrations of a crowd, or even the sense of participation - which I'm pleased you also recognise - that can come from reading). Just thought it was relevant to language learning and the direction this thread was taking, is all.

[Ledu]

@abcdefg  Well I appreciate that. I think it is always challenging when speaking to someone who is not from the same culture(world) as you are. I think I could have said it differently. When engaging in conversation it is like walking on eggshells, trying not to upset the other person.  But this is not how I am talked to very often. So that is why I say it requires patience and mercy. Mercy in that I most likely am the first foreigner a person has ever seen or talked to. I should have mercy and not malice. 

 

@sanchuan

Thanks also for your input. I don't expect to integrate fully. I think the opposite of provincinal is cosmopolitan. I guess I will have to go to the largest cities and see if I have an easier time.

 

Also to your point of if I am already an "other" I have nothing to lose by civil confrontation and exchange. Well, I will try it. My first years, I did exactly that, perhaps not in a civil way either. I did everything exactly the same as I would in my home country.  But Daoism and learning about how things are done in China somehow has influenced me. When in Rome do as the Romans do and all. I will try to shake it off and speak my mind at times. I am just so used to chosing what not to say.  

 

And as far as education and learning is concerned no one has mentioned "Bildung" yet. I understand it has self-cultivation and the pursuit of culture, of being a cultured person. 

[Babylon]

I'm a Chinese who is learning English and Japanese, I can't represent any other Chinese people but only myself. I like English because I consider the U.S. is the the lighthouse of human civilization. I like Japanese language for its euphonious pronunciation to listen those sweet-sounding music. All of these reasons have nothing about for to make some real friends who can only say another language, I've always thought of making friends is no relation with which language they are speaking. Back to the Chinese language, we've known the China has five thousand years of history, there are 1.4 billion people speaking it, so you can find out many interesting things inside it, such as music, movies, TV serials, we media footages, comedies, video games, snacks, literature, and other culture, economics, sciences, awesome landscapes ... countless to list, only a small part of them have a translated version, and the 原汁原味的(original flavor) would always be the best.

 

[abcdefg]

On 7/28/2023 at 8:12 PM, Ledu said:

When engaging in conversation it is like walking on eggshells, trying not to upset the other person.  But this is not how I am talked to very often. 

 

I think we probably have different approaches to interacting with other people, though I heartily endorse your principles of patience and mercy. This whole discussion just strikes me as strange. It's as though there are some unspoken assumptions which we do not share.

 

My years of living in China were full of easy social connections and good friendships. Mutual acceptance and respect. As my language skills improved, my interpersonal relationships became richer. Of course, sometimes I blundered and fouled things up, much as I've done most of my life, wherever I was living. On the whole, though, it all worked out extremely well in China; life was good. I liked China and I liked most of the Chinese people I got to know. So many days brought wonders and excitement and revelations. I realize these comments are going beyond just a discussion of learning the language, so it might not be completely appropriate in this thread. 

 

Sounds like you might have run into more problems than I did in your "China life." Are you still in China now? Where do you live? What do you do there? I'm not trying to argue against anything you are saying. I only wanted to make it clear that I don't share in your impressions and conclusions. 

[Ledu]

@abcdefgI am sure your experience was different. Your personality is probably different.  Your previous location may have had more foreigners too. You might have been the 100th a local encountered and not the 1st. I am also not having such a bad time. I like living here. But there are some variables that make it difficult. I mentioned some in the previous posts. Others are colloquial and idiomatic language as well as local dialects. I work as an English teacher in a T2 city in the south, married to a Chinese woman who also can speak my language well. When we visit her family in the north most speak colloquial dongbei. Might as well burn your HSK textbook.

 

Today visiting the north, my wife's family slaughtered a pig. I spoke a little, what I could. I understood more. One of her uncles came to me, loud, drunk talking to me. It was non-stop. This man was definatly not speaking standard Mandarin. He knew I couldn't speak Chinese well but he kept talking to me regardless (extroversion). I now will always remember the difference between yi1fu5衣服 and yi2fu5姨父. I used Pleco to copy what he was saying and figured it out. Because I had sent some of my old clothes here before, I was really confused. I thought he was talking about clothes. I am only like HSK4, think Peppa the Pig level in spoken language. 

 

The Chinese people I am aquaintances with have Phd's and are party members. We eat together or play sports together. They also tend to want to speak English because I am the only person they have the opportunity to.  Making friends with party members seems to be easy for me. So being an English teacher, native speaker also doesn't help my Chinese language level too much. I am friends with them but in a different way than back in my home country. I am not spending my days with them. Even when I did make more of a "friend" we spoke English always. Almost everyone I encounter wants to speak English with me. So to make it seem as if someone is going to meet a Chinese friend named Frank and hang out with Frank every Friday and speak Chinese is an illusion. I seriously doubt that will happen. Of all the other foriegn friends I have met, none of them have Chinese friends that they do things with often. Not one. Most of these foreigners were also extroverted in nature. So it is not easy, there are many barriers.

 

If I only put 10% immersion in and a Chinese kid puts in 100%, in 10 years I may just speak like a 2 year old. If you want to speak well you should learn colloquial Chinese for the specific area you will live. If there is a local dialect, you should learn that too. There are also apps for ordering food and taxis by which you won't need to speak Chinese but reading will be more beneficial. Not everyone speaks standard Mandarin in China. There are varying education levels also, many variations.

[Babylon]

@Ledu 好吧 你成功的戳中了我的笑点 既然是老婆是中国人 你跟她练中文就可以了 很快就学会了 但是我觉得也没必要 不是说在中国就一定要说中文 没必要为了学中文而去学中文 但如果你就是想提高 你可以只和中国朋友说中文 no matter which languange they are taking to you ... 这样不是很有趣吗 他们练他们的英语 你玩你的Chinese ... 而且你应该可以用国内的各种app 在上面以虚拟身份和国人聊天也可以 不告诉他们你是个外国人就好 anyway I like the 东北话, it's really playing as a funny role in the whole China.
 

[Ledu]

@Babylon我可以听懂。我经常看足球和写汉语。朋友们用普通话和我聊天。 我可以试试。

[Babylon]

On 7/30/2023 at 4:19 PM, Babylon said:

既然是老婆是中国人

既然你老婆是中国人

On 7/30/2023 at 4:19 PM, Babylon said:

no matter which languange they are taking to you ...

talking to you

纠正两个错别字, 我下次注意 因为有外国朋友 如果拼写错误可能造成困扰 

[sanchuan]

On 7/29/2023 at 10:02 PM, abcdefg said:

On the whole, though, it all worked out extremely well in China; life was good.

@Ledu's original points touched upon questions of covert discrimination, clash of values, localist/nativist biasies and other issues that one might associate with the cultural worldview and zeitgeist of a place. Although no single individual is ever a reflection of the average 'norm' of a place, it's also true to say that some things are just more widely accepted than others in certain contexts. 

 

I say that because - and I don't mean to make assumptions about your own personal case here - it would be hard to deny that it's much easier to feel welcome in China as someone who looks like a middle-class, white, abled, straight, cisgender, native English speaker from the US of A. Doors will open that, I would assume, may well remain closed to others. We can all vouch to the fact that, once the doors are open, most people are 100% genuine, honest and delightful human beings. But it must be a different experience for those to whom the doors are, by cultural default, mostly closed, or mostly ajar, most of the time. And it's great to speak up about some of those issues here, even if in general terms. 

[abcdefg]

@Ledu -- I wish you the best in your China adventures. (@sanchuan, too.)

 

Confession: What may be happening now is that my mind may be subtly distorting the historical truth, "smoothing it out" and making my own China days feel more harmonious and trouble-free in retrospect than they actually were at the time. I've been back in Texas since the start of Covid. I now wish I hadn't fled, but I did. Missing China, missing my Chinese friends, and missing the life I had there. So, it is entirely possible that, without consciously trying, I have put on a pair of rose-tinted glasses and am conveniently forgetting some of the struggles and rough spots of my "China years." Things that frustrated me or upset me are fading out while things that pleased me and excited me are more vivid than ever.  

[Ledu]

@abcdefg I appreciate it. Hope you can return to China too, if possible. If you ever get a chance to visit the North, I like Harbin during the summer.

@Babylon谢谢?

[abcdefg]

 

On 7/30/2023 at 8:41 AM, Ledu said:

Hope you can return to China too, if possible. If you ever get a chance to visit the North, I like Harbin during the summer.

 

@Ledu-- Thanks! Very kind of you. I spent a most pleasant summer in Harbin. 2008, during the Olympics. The people were so friendly! 东北人很热情！BTW, I'm glad you got to be in on a pig killing 杀猪。As you know, it is a hugely-important cultural ritual, usually done in late winter, around the start of Spring Festival 春节。Would not surprise me if the talkative drunk uncle who cornered you was wanting to make sure you "got it." I always saw attending a pig killing as one of those "you-are-now-one-of-us" moments. Congratulations! 

[suMMit]

On 6/30/2022 at 6:48 PM, abcdefg said:

Definitely! Just started doing my other hobbies in Chinese. 

Yes. This would be the best. I need to find that hobby...

 

As it turned out my semi-break lasted about 6 months. I've been back working on Chinese more than ever since then.

[abcdefg]

Welcome back! 

 

On 8/5/2023 at 4:38 AM, suMMit said:

Yes. This would be the best. I need to find that hobby...

 

When I was living in China one of my hobbies was exploring Chinese tea. That was easy to do in Chinese. Would have been nearly impossible, or at least very clumsy, to do it in any other language. Another hobby was Chinese cooking. Same story there; using any language other than Chinese would have been doomed from the start. It would have been nuts to try and learn "English-equivalent" names for local ingredients, cooking techniques and tools. I also did Tai Chi. Took a group class with Chinese people, mostly middle aged, outdoors in the early morning. That was easy to do in Chinese since I didn't know the vocabulary beforehand in any language. Cost 20 RMB a month, just to discourage the riff raff. 

 

When I traveled inside China for fun, I usually stayed at smaller business hotels, a step up from hostels. No gringos there, so it was natural to do it in Chinese. Same with riding the train; same with even booking the ticket. When I didn't know the lingo for any of these activities, I methodically learned it. Flashcards, whatever. Then each live use counted as a "review and refinement" session. It was easy to tell when I needed to change how I said things; instant feedback. 

 

Same was true with eating out in small mom-and-pop cafes and noodle shops. The language of that hobby instantly got put to use. The language expanded organically to meet a concrete need in daily life. I needed to know the name of those spicy red peppers so that I could add them or avoid them. It wasn't an abstract task; it wasn't like cramming for an exam.