Pronouncing 'r'

[doezeedoats]

in the "bo-po-mo-fo" system (注音符號), r (ㄖ) is grouped with the other retroflexes zh, ch, sh (ㄓ,ㄔ,ㄕ) for good reason: the tongue is essentially in the same position mid-palate.

[xiaocai]

in the "bo-po-mo-fo" system (注音符號), r (ㄖ) is grouped with the other retroflexes zh, ch, sh (ㄓ,ㄔ,ㄕ) for good reason: the tongue is essentially in the same position mid-palate.

They are also put together in pinyin chart.

[sukitc]

Transliteration of the mysterious 'r' sound into the English alphabets probably was an issue for the Burmese language as well. Remember when the capital of Burma was Rangoon? And, now it's Yangon.

[calibre2001]

The 'r' sound?

Try to say 'arghh' like how pirates do (i.e.Jack Sparrow), less the snarl and you should be reasonably close.

[Hofmann]

We're talking about the initial r.

[querido]

Has everyone seen these videos?

(follow the link and click the speaker under the chin to play)

Internal animation and external videos

Edit 17FEB09:

That link is dead now.

It was from speakchineseonline.com, which is also presently dead.

Edited February 17, 2009 at 03:30 PM by querido

[Manuel]

Hi all, this retroflex issue is proving rather tricky. There are two problems: 1) not everybody does it the same, and 2) different sources propose different manners of articulation that don't agree.

Regarding the curling back of the tongue, does it mean that the air friction occurs between the underside of the tip of the tongue and the "post-alveolar region" (more on this below)? Wikipedia says that, theoretically, retroflexes do involve curling the tip of the tongue back, but in practice apical or laminal articulations are also used. So which one's right? In Spanish, which is my mother tongue, I can pronounce most consonant sounds in various different ways and the sound still sounds standard. The problem is that in the global context of a word or a sentence, where sounds are strung in a sequence, incorrect articulation almost always results in discomfort e.g. the tongue travels longer distances than needed. Therefore mastering the phonemes in isolation is of little use because you won't know if you are doing it right. A native speaker, over the years, experiments with all the possibilities and eventually settles for whichever one requires the least amount of effort on average.

In my case, for example, I have great trouble saying 一张票 if I follow the advice given in most guides, i.e. curling the tip back even a tiny bit for the 张: First, the tip of my tongue is down for 一, then it moves up and backwards for 张, and then down again for 票. I don't know if it's because of the yi sound not being right or because of the zh sound not being right, but this sequence feels very unnatural and the sound does not come out right, although it comes out pretty nice when I articulate the sounds in isolation.

There's one more point I'd be glad to finally understand with regards to the location of the post-alveolar region. A lot of sources talk about the post-alveolar region like everybody knows what it is and where it is, but I am yet to find a source with unambiguous descriptions and supporting diagrams/pictures/media (as opposed to a shitty diagram done in Microsoft Paint) showing where the heck it starts and ends. "It's just behind the alveolar ridge", which of course everybody knows the location of to the millimetre, I mean, how long is a piece of string? This wouldn't be particularly hard to indicate on a drawing: all that's needed is a diagram of the mouth and a few lines to delimit the various regions relative to the teeth or relative to something tangible with distinct boundaries that can be felt or seen.

I'd gladly contribute this information myself but unfortunately I don't know the answer.

[roddy]

Here you go.

[Don_Horhe]

The retroflex initials in Mandarin are called so just for the sake of convenience, don't let the name confuse you. This article might prove useful to you, especially pages 10-12.

[Manuel]

Here you go.

Haha how funny.

Edit: Sorry about the sarcasm if your post was genuinely well meant. It's just that pointing me to Wikipedia is like saying I don't know how to use Google. Of course I had already read that and many other wiki articles, and they all failed to answer my questions satisfactorily.

The retroflex initials in Mandarin are called so just for the sake of convenience, don't let the name confuse you. This article might prove useful to you, especially pages 10-12.

Don_Horhe has pointed me to the most useful and relevant paper thus far, written by Hana Třísková. This paper is very practical as it is written by someone who majored in Chinese, and confirms many of my personal findings, for example, the fact that some speakers pronounce h as a uvular fricative and others as a velar fricative depending the final, etc.

There are many "right solutions" to this problem, and the important thing is to stick with one and internalize so that when you speak you don't need to think about it. That's when the language learning process starts speeding up.

I will read this paper carefully after work. I think it contains all the answers. I used to think I had looked at every possible resource on the web and then... did you just find this paper through google?? What a find! Thanks a lot!

[creamyhorror]

I will read this paper carefully after work. I think it contains all the answers. I used to think I had looked at every possible resource on the web and then... did you just find this paper through google?? What a find! Thanks a lot!

I came across that paper too when we were discussing certain aspects of Mandarin pronunciation. Here's the post where I refer to it - you might find the rest of the thread interesting to read. I think one or two other papers on phonology/pronunciation are linked.

Poll: shhhhhhh! "x" or "sh"

[Ash Blue]

I can pronounce all of the pinyin sounds now other than R. It's so hard for me to pronounce it! I hope I can eventually do it without effort.