Comparison West vs China

[matteo]

I've recently been discussing "important" topics on China vs West views of the world, in my woefully inadequate spoken Chinese with my teacher on Italky. 

Just made me realize how little I know, and how hard is to reconcile what we read in the media about China, what we choose to believe, and what the Chinese think. 

 

I found this article on the topic to be interesting and in my opinion fairly neutral (would be curious to hear people's opinions about it):

https://hbr.org/2021/05/what-the-west-gets-wrong-about-china

 

Can anyone suggest good articles or literature on this broad subject?

Which are the conversation that you have with Chinese people that you find most interesting, and which most frustrating?

How does that affect your love of Chinese culture and your motivation to study the language?

[anonymoose]

Discussions around these topics don't usually go well with Chinese people if you want to be honest with yourself.

[Moshen]

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July 2020 polling data from the Ash Center at Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government revealed 95% satisfaction with the Beijing government among Chinese citizens.

 

I'm extremely skeptical of whether or not any poll could reflect how Chinese people really feel about their government.  So any article that accepts such polling has little credibility or interest for me.

[matteo]

I've recently found this YT channel that is pretty much the kind of middle-ground perspective I was looking for

https://www.youtube.com/@SimingLan/featured

 

I hope you'll find it interesting whether you agree with the author or not. 
Cheers

[abcdefg]

Thank you @matteo-- She's such a delightful person! Apart from that, I particularly found her insights on being Muslim in China interesting. I lived in Yunnan a long time; it's a province with a large Muslim minority population. I had Muslim friends 回族 with whom I learned about the best Muslim cafes and the best Huizu dishes to try.  Although China likes to boast about being tolerant of its minorities, subtle "normalization" pressures were very much present, even back then.  

 

[Ledu]

On 3/18/2023 at 6:04 AM, matteo said:

Can anyone suggest good articles or literature on this broad subject?

 

Films/TV shows:  Farewell (2019), American Born Chinese TV series (2023). Stranger Things, the idea of The Upside Down.

 

My understanding of culture came from the first book listed below- unique personal experiences, shared values, history, individualism/collectivism, system of government, family upbringing/ ways children are raised, food, religion or lack of religion, system of education.

 

***"The Renaissance" and or absence of it, theories of education and governmental systems, Germany. 

 

For Western:  I recommend reading all books by Ayn Rand and Friedrich Nietzsche. Western Classics and classic Sci-Fi will reflect hardcore western values too.

 

For Eastern: All the great writers must be read including Confucious, Zhuangzi, Laozi and all the classic works of literature. 

 

 

The Chrysanthemum and the Sword: Patterns of Japanese Culture

Ruth Benedict

The Crowd: Study of the Popular Mind

Gustave Le Bon

Grundrisse: Foundations of the Critique of Political Economy	Karl Marx
The Value of Everything: Making and Taking in the Global Economy	Mariana Mazzucato

The Woman in the Dunes

Kōbō Abe

The Communist Manifesto

Karl Marx

The Way of Chuang Tzu	Zhuangzi
The Analects	Confucius

Chinese Characteristics

Arthur Henderson Smith

Robinson Crusoe

Daniel Defoe

The Anatomy of Fascism

Robert O. Paxton

A History of Fascism, 1914-1945

Stanley G. Payne

Dao De Jing

Laozi

 

***Harvard does have an excellent Chinese History course that is for free and can even be accessed on Youku in China.  Both Professors can speak Chinese. 

 

On 3/18/2023 at 6:04 AM, matteo said:

Which are the conversation that you have with Chinese people that you find most interesting, and which most frustrating?

 

 

Profane: Abstraction, abstract thought, protest

Values:  Harmony and obedience

 

Acceptable conversation: food, realistic things, gossip, complaining.

Frustrations: Collectivism, the use of idioms used to express closeness/intellect, gossip, complaining.

Positives: Too many to list. 

 

On 3/18/2023 at 6:04 AM, matteo said:

How does that affect your love of Chinese culture and your motivation to study the language?

 

I decided learning to read more could help me engage with this language because I love reading.  Also I bought a book series written specifically about the culture in Chinese- Dialogues about China. The more I learn about the culture, the less pain there is. Being able to read books in Chinese about Chinese culture is a motivation for me. I also would like to read not just about culture itself but Sci-Fi written by Chinese authors. I don't feel a need to speak Chinese and am often encouraging myself to "not say too much" in either language. The other day I was asked by Chinese people to play badminton  and we played for 3 hours. I also learned a new phrase. We didn't speak much, but that's ok. We had fun (and I lost some weight). A lot of my experiences are that way. Spoken language is rarely used other than ordering food basically.

 

For example small talk does not exist in this language. Here is what exists:  明知故问 （ask while knowing the answer).  "Oh your going to the store". "Yep, I am doing some shopping, Bye". This allows the other person to not feel like you are envading their personal business. This concept took me years to learn and appreciate. I was only used to small talk as a way to communicate when seeing someone I knew.

 

On should a culture, river, ocean, religion divide us: 

"Nobody can build the bridge for you to walk across the river of life, no one but you yourself alone. There are, to be sure, countless paths and bridges and demi-gods which would carry you across this river; but only at the cost of yourself; you would pawn yourself and lose. There is in the world only one way, on which nobody can go, except you: where does it lead? Do not ask, go along with it." - Nietzsche

 

 

[Moshen]

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Robinson Crusoe

I am curious what you were thinking when you put Robinson Crusoe on this list.  That it depicts the ultimate individualism in Western culture?  The self-sufficient hero who subjugates others?

 

Quote

For Western:  I recommend reading all books by Ayn Rand

 

You feel Ayn Rand represents core Western culture?  Oh boy.  Millions of Western people would disagree with you there.  She is so extreme.

 

If you're going to recommend Ruth Benedict on Japan, I would also recommend:

Confucius Lives Next Door: What Living in the East Teaches Us About Living in the West

 

Quote

Profane: Abstraction, abstract thought, protest

 

And what did you mean here by "profane" - unacceptable?

 

When I worked in China in the 1980s for a year, younger coworkers that I became close to did express (to me) abstract ideas and protests about the Communist system.  Are you saying that there's something in Chinese culture (as opposed to the political system) that rejects abstract thought or protest?  Most Westerners don't think abstractly or protest, either...

[Ledu]

He is a traveller.  In the beginning he is a slave himself on a ship, later he goes to an island and encounters the natives. So what is interesting is how he interprets the customs of the natives and appropriates some things (as his own ways fail in that environment).  He often refers to these natives as “savages”, looks down upon them also.  I am not sure there is an arc where this changes during the book and I can see how this also depicts racism.  Nietzche was racist too, but we can look beyond that and see what we can learn positively.

 

How often do you see posts here with people asking to practice English but “ I just don’t want to say bad things about my country, I love my country”. I can admit in the beginning I felt a sense of superiority as if I was brightening lives by telling people how things exist where I come from. No one wants to hear bad things about their country. And The Economist and Harvard Business Review are written to support a certain way of thinking, a certain society. 

 

Lastly, in the show The Stranger Things, the “Upside Down” has monsters that seem to work collectively and also through the mind.  It is always dark there.  In season 1, the monsters are like vines.  There is this portrayal of a society that is collective is bad, evil. It also is depicted in the 80s. In my education any talk about Communism or Marxism was frowned upon, even in college. I don’t remember any professor teaching me about these concepts. So some things are portrayed as evil because they don’t support the system in place- Capitalism.

 

Yet what if “The Upside Down” was full of happy people who actually were enjoying their lives and were not evil?  With values totally opposite of the other world. What if instead of how the Russians are depicted in Stranger Things they drive brand new nice cars (fully paid), live in houses (fully paid) wearing $10k dollar watches yet with salaries of just 3,000 yuan per month (zero debt)?  

 

 

I think Ayn Rand is extreme but a strong proponent of Capitalism. Sometimes getting some of these strong pasionate ideas can be helpful.  I don’t agree with her but when it comes to ideas of self-determination it is good to see a portrayal of this. Because in other societies self-determination is lacking. She is not a perfect model either as later she supposedly lived off food stamps.

 

And thanks for your recommendation, I will read it.

 

Profane = Don’t talk about. While I agree there was the cultural revolution and protests. Protests happen still. But even those protests are considered as “shameful and reckless”. I think these attitudes stem from culture first. Perhaps this stems from Daoism?  A suicide becomes a national festival?

 

The book, “The Crowd” depicts protest as weak as herdlike.  This is the same as wild sports fans. While in the West, Protest as an idea is seen as a value, as significant, useful and necessary. And I agree most Westerners don’t think abstractly, they believe something but I have never happily had conversations with Chinese people about ideas.  Instead it always reverts to them complaining, usually about their culture or Confucious’s impact on their society etc.

 

I forgot to mention that more values are Family, City/Nation. But all of this is coming from the culture not just an enforcement by government. Also the Harvard History course is a video course.

 

[Moshen]

Quote

I have never happily had conversations with Chinese people about ideas. 

 

I did, numerous times.  The most interesting people to talk to were those who had had some education in the US and had gone back to China to be part of the Communist Party infrastructure.  Maybe this wouldn't happen now, but when I was there the older people were still recovering from the Cultural Revolution and lots of things could be spoken about with a kind of relief.

[Ledu]

Those must have been wild times. Now that I think of it, the only people I have talked about abstract ideas were with CCP members in English. Most have PHD’s and some studied abroad. I guess I didn’t feel too comfortable given the topics were ones I did not know much about but were important to them.  Such as Daoism, Death, Chinese history. Also I didn’t want to make them upset, and they didn’t want to make me upset either. Perhaps the OP could have conversations about those topics with their Italki teacher and see if it sparks a conversation.

[alantin]

I have come to dislike the whole term "the west"...
What exactly do you mean by "the west" and what does your iTalki teacher mean by it? Is for example Japan included in it?

I've learned that most of the time Chinese people will think of the U.S. when they talk about 西方国家 and they tend to lump the whole Europe, Australia, etc. to the same basket. They also don't have a very clear idea of what differences there are between, for example, Europe and the U.S. At some point some Chinese person asked me about the asian hate in "the west" where I lived and I had no idea what she was talking about, until I realized that she was reading the Chinese news about the U.S. and somehow expecting them to apply to Finland too.

 

This making generalizations and applying them to my country based on news about the U.S., twisted by the CCP controlled Chinese state media politically correct bashing of it, is something I find particularly offensive, so why would I play along with it and why should we contrast one country, even one as big as China, with a large number of other countries, each with their own distinct cultures, issues, and history.

 

I never talk about "the west" with Chinese people anymore (and I avoid using the term with everyone else too), and if they bring it up, I like to ask which part exactly they mean and I'll talk about the U.S., EU, northern Europe, etc. instead. Contrasting China and "the west" is just too crude a generalization to be useful in most conversations other than in political pissing contests, which thrive on vague statements and generalizations.

[Ledu]

It is difficult to have a conversation when someone always speaks using stereotypes and generalizations. I don't support it, but I try to have mercy. I also just talk with people I enjoy talking with instead. Personally, I think in some cultures the nature of a people are different than my own. 

 

I read the OP's linked article and I think it is wrong in that it does not express the power that a culture can have. I have a hunch that the two Phd's can't even speak or read Chinese. There is no way more conversation about culture is in this thread than in that article. 

 

However, the two Harvard professors who do China History X can both speak Chinese. One can also speak German. They do so with students, business men and in China with farmers. The history course is even available on Yoku within China. That a course could be vetted and allowed by the Chinese government itself is more convincing than this article. 

https://www.edx.org/bio/peter-k-bol

https://www.edx.org/bio/william-c-kirby

 

I did some investigative journalism and found that Professor Rana Mitter does admit to speaking Mandarin on his university website. Also Professor Elsbeth Johnson doesn't list it on her bio but she does list her experience working with as an advisor for 3 years under the first Blair adminsitration in the UK. She also was an investment BANKER in Hong Kong.  So, I think the article is propaganda endeavoring to perpetuate a certain train of thought. Banks and Politicians are behind this for more money or more political power. 

 

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news-and-events/find-an-expert/professor-rana-mitter

https://mitsloan.mit.edu/faculty/directory/elsbeth-johnson

 

"Examples of her clients include American Express, Arm, Baringa Partners LLP, Citibank, Deutsche Bank, Google, Linklaters LLP, Merck, Oxford Instruments, QBE and Swiss Re. "

Edited June 28, 2023 at 05:10 AM by Ledu
Investigative Journalism

[Lu]

On 6/26/2023 at 3:40 PM, Ledu said:

Also I didn’t want to make them upset, and they didn’t want to make me upset either.

This is key, in my experience. Talk about issues with people you respect, whose thinking you respect, and ask them about their viewpoints. There are quite some people from The West (TM) who just want to tell the other person what they think and show how smart and correct they are, and that is just not the way to a fruitful conversation with someone different from you. I do get it, I am such a person myself and I really enjoy verbal boxing matches, but there are some people one can have boxing matches with and some people one should carefully build a house of cards with, and boxing with a house of cards person doesn't work.

[matteo]

On 6/27/2023 at 9:27 AM, alantin said:

I have come to dislike the whole term "the west"...
What exactly do you mean by "the west" and what does your iTalki teacher mean by it? Is for example Japan included in it?

I've learned that most of the time Chinese people will think of the U.S. when they talk about 西方国家 and they tend to lump the whole Europe, Australia, etc. to the same basket. They also don't have a very clear idea of what differences there are between, for example, Europe and the U.S. At some point some Chinese person asked me about the asian hate in "the west" where I lived and I had no idea what she was talking about, until I realized that she was reading the Chinese news about the U.S. and somehow expecting them to apply to Finland too.

 

This making generalizations and applying them to my country based on news about the U.S., twisted by the CCP controlled Chinese state media politically correct bashing of it, is something I find particularly offensive, so why would I play along with it and why should we contrast one country, even one as big as China, with a large number of other countries, each with their own distinct cultures, issues, and history.

 

I never talk about "the west" with Chinese people anymore (and I avoid using the term with everyone else too), and if they bring it up, I like to ask which part exactly they mean and I'll talk about the U.S., EU, northern Europe, etc. instead. Contrasting China and "the west" is just too crude a generalization to be useful in most conversations other than in political pissing contests, which thrive on vague statements and generalizations.

 

I fully agree with you and brought this argument forward with my teacher more than once since I started this thread. 

I am trying not to use "the West" anymore but I have to admit it's awfully convenient on a whole lot of occasions....

 

@Ledu thanks heaps for the recommendation, edx is a great find! I started following the free Harvard course on Contemporary China, really interesting. 

I also found a Free Chinese Grammar Course by 北京大学 on the same platform which seems well made and I will incorporate into my studies. 

[abcdefg]

On 6/29/2023 at 4:28 AM, matteo said:

I started following the free Harvard course on Contemporary China, really interesting. 

I have enrolled in this course. Also completed their long China history course a couple years ago. Good teaching team. Very worthwhile. This one appears to cover 1820 to 2020.