What textbook exercises do you find helpful? And how do they help you?

[suMMit]

@LeduYeah that's laoma Chris wife's channel, though he's not in the video I linked. This is an American Chinese professor and they talk about her learning methods, her learning journey, comprehenable input etc. As for Rita's husband, lamao Chris, I don't think he's your average learner. I'm guessing he has a good amount of natural talent, very extroverted and a great attitude. No doubt he put in a lot of work, but his work probably goes farther and faster than most of us. I also don't think having a Chinese wife should be given that much credit either. I'll bet the professor in the video has put in more work over the years, and while she obviously speaks excellent Chinese, it doesn't sound as natural as Chris does. 

 

I had to look up extensive and intensive learning. Although I've heard it talked about a lot, wasn't exactly sure what it meant. How about some of both? Isn't the first year always going to be intensive, since everything is pretty much new?  For material over my level, I prefer listening, as it's less of a drudge. So when I listen to native content but don't look up many unknown words, is that extensive or intensive or what? 

[Ledu]

On 2/13/2024 at 7:28 PM, suMMit said:

I also don't think having a Chinese wife should be given that much credit either.

@suMMit Well his wife would not be a typical Chinese wife either. She is one of the most famous Chinese pronunciation teachers. Her website alone is very professional. Although having a wife that is a Phd in teaching Chinese would be different she is a very fortunate wife for Laoma Chris to have. But I agree in that I can't compare my progress with his. He has a MA from a top university, I have a BA.  I can only do what I can with the equipment I got. 

 

As far as intensive reading it is when you are looking up every single word you do not understand. Of course you can skip some and try to understand through context. It is easier to read things you are interested in with intensive reading because there is no barrier.  

 

With graded readers they should be at about 90% of your current knowledge. You are encouraged to read and learn through context and not look up every word you don't understand. This is supposed to build other reading skills. The content is supposed to be compelling but usually it is not. These are not world famous authors and you only have a limited vocabulary to work with. 

 

In regards to intensive viewing/listening some people will screenshot the subtitles of each scene and make sure they understand everything. Unfortunately with the white text of subtitles Pleco's OCR won't catch it. But I do know people who watch their favorite Chinese dramas and intensively look up all words that are spoken. They watch an episode multiple times so they can understand it, often because they like the story or main actors. 

 

If you are listening to an audio in the background and not really focusing that would be passive listening. For example, you listen to an audio while you go for a walk. When I watched the New Years Gala, I could not understand  a lot. But I was actively listening. I think that would be called active listening. In terms of the vocabulary and grammar used in the New Years Gala I probably understood about 50%. So it also could be intensive listening. It was not in the extensive range of 90-98% understandable input. Others can correct me if they have more knowledge of these concepts. Thanks.

[realmayo]

I have always seen the most improvement - and felt the most exhausted - by doing the tried-and-tested combination of intensive reading and intensive listening, for the same texts: good quality text with good quality audio, for each text: don't look at the text, just listen to the entire audio twice, then:

• listen to the first sentence a few times trying to understand it
• write the pinyin of anything you don't understand
• finally look at the text of that sentence in your textbook. Match the unknown parts to the pinyin you tried to write
• listen to the sentence again
• listen to the sentence again a few times while saying it out loud, trying to mimic the speaker
• try to say the sentence a couple of times from memory
• move onto the next sentence
• 1 minute of audio might take 30-60 minutes of work this way.

This is kind of how native speakers learn: lots and lots of patient, repetitive audio, at an appropriate level, with repetition, and a later reading component.

@OneEye did a video somewhere saying much the same thing.

[Ledu]

@realmayo

Thank you. I was hoping someone might mention ways to implement this and you have clearly. I want to get as much as I can out of all the materials I am buying. They are beneficial if they "accelerate" my learning. 

 

I think this is an interesting that you mention to read and then write the pinyin and not the hanzi. And then read and match the pinyin to the hanzi in the text. Usually what I do with a passage that is intensive is I highlight all unknown words as I look them up in my dictionary. After that I write them down-- the hanzi and pinyin. I usually don't write down the English definition. This makes a cheat sheet for me to use as I try to re-read the text with those new words next to me in my notebook. 

 

But you are saying just write the pinyin. I think it could work also.  I will try this and these steps you mentioned going forward. Thank you for your advice. 

[realmayo]

Actually I'm suggesting writing the pinyin *before* reading: so you just listen and keep listening until you understand a sentence. If there are sounds you hear you're not clear about, write what you think the pinyin is for that sound.  Doing this forces me to think about the sound I'm hearing. Eventually I give up and look at the text for the first time.

[OneEye]

On 2/14/2024 at 12:20 AM, realmayo said:

@OneEye did a video somewhere saying much the same thing.

 

I think you mean this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8HG7640o6o

 

And yes, it's a very helpful (and intensive) method!

[realmayo]

Yes that's the one, having previously studied at ICLP I remember being glad to see you recommending a method that they've had so much success with.

 

More relevant to the other thread about italki teachers but: my hunch is that, having put several hours of work into intensively studying a text, it's best to then find someone to then discuss the text with, to give you active use of that material. At ICLP for their key texts that's two hours class time for every two hours preparation, but a much lower ratio, with a friend or random online teacher who has done no preparation, would be much better than doing that work all on your own and then simply moving on to the next chapter without actually using the material actively.

 

So back to this textbook topic: the ideal textbook for self-studiers in particular would have a review at the end of each chapter with key grammar points and vocab usage explained and talking points listed (most textbooks have those), but also (i) advice for a student on how to study the book, and (ii) advice for a teacher on how to run a one-on-one discussion and drilling of the texts.

[Ledu]

Rita's Chinese video:
-If studying 20 characters keep looping back to the 1st every 5th so as not to forget by the time you finish.

Outlier ones:
-Most likely a textbook would be best to use as audio could easily be edited. 
-Audacity to splice audio.

 

I will try this in the future. Thanks for these two video suggestions and this Audio First technique. 
 

[abcdefg]

On 2/14/2024 at 1:10 AM, realmayo said:

my hunch is that, having put several hours of work into intensively studying a text, it's best to then find someone to then discuss the text with, to give you active use of that material.

 

Agree. I did lots and lots and lots of that. Mainly with intelligent amateur tutors who were native Chinese speakers. Often university grad students, moonlighting by helping me learn Chinese. Many hours well spent. I also roped a few Chinese friends into reading a short chapter of something so we could talk about it afterwards during a train ride or plane flight. Just ordinary Chinese people. Not illustrious professors. I had to be able to use what I learned in conversation for me to care about knowing it. Reading was a distant second as a learning goal. (I'm not saying that was the right decision; it was just my bias at the time.)

 

Same with Chinese TV shows and Chinese movies. I would try to recruit some of my friends to watch a bit of the same material I was enjoying so we could talk about it (in Chinese, of course.) "Remember how Chen looked at Li about 5 minutes into the film, just before their car wreck? How would you tell someone about that scene, how would you describe that kind of glance? Was it a 123 glance, or was it a 456 glance? Why in the world do you think he looked at her like that?" 

 

Some of my friends were into such games, others weren't. And some times it was successful as a learning approach, sometimes it wasn't. Didn't matter; I was resolved to cast a wide net. That was a large part of why I was living in China. 

[becky82]

From Reddit:

 

Quote

Boring textbooks.

 

I'm learning Mandarin and teaching German.

 

The German textbooks are colorful, have a large variety of exercises and the lessons are practical, incorporating things as classifieds, sms texts, dialogs with pictures, exercises accompanied by audio etc. etc. It's a really good mix of structure snd variety, with highly pleasing design.

 

In my Mandarin book series, every lesson unit is the same. One dialog with vocab, a short article for reading comprehension with vocab, a grammar section, a culture section. Repeat ad nauseam. HSK books are even worse.

 

I too get tired of the exact same exercise section after section.  One of the most absurd exercises I've encountered is this (from the HSK6 Standard course):

 

 

You read the sentence and replace 一定要 with 务必.  I remember the first time I did such an exercise, I completely rewrote the sentences.  I had no idea someone would ask me to do such a mindless task.

[abcdefg]

On 2/20/2024 at 5:01 PM, becky82 said:

I had no idea someone would ask me to do such a mindless task.

 

I had a teacher in Kunming who wanted me to memorize the inane textbook dialogues for all the lessons as we studied them. Verbatim. I thought I must have misunderstood her, but no. Old School!

[honglam]

On 2/21/2024 at 11:47 AM, abcdefg said:

 

I had a teacher in Kunming who wanted me to memorize the inane textbook dialogues for all the lessons as we studied them. Verbatim. I thought I must have misunderstood her, but no. 

Well 背课文 is a tradition in Chinese lessons for Chinese as well. Quotations of historical stories and classics seems to be the symbol of good-education in Chinese context as well.

On 2/21/2024 at 7:01 AM, becky82 said:

 

I too get tired of the exact same exercise section after section

That's true for everyone. So I'd neglect some of the practice while using language textbooks(obviously, not Chinese books) as well.

On 2/21/2024 at 7:01 AM, becky82 said:

The German textbooks are colorful, have a large variety of exercises and the lessons are practical, incorporating things as classifieds, sms texts, dialogs with pictures, exercises accompanied by audio etc. etc. It's a really good mix of structure snd variety, with highly pleasing design.

I'd say designing books for both classroom and self-study is a dilemma. I've used some "colourful" textbooks when I was studying Spanish by myself, And the structure of textbook made me mad as I didn't have a companion to help me with the communicative part.

[abcdefg]

On 2/22/2024 at 7:15 AM, honglam said:

Well 背课文 is a tradition in Chinese lessons for Chinese as well. Quotations of historical stories and classics seems to be the symbol of good-education in Chinese context as well.

 

I was happy to memorize famous literary passages or speeches or poems. Just not banal dialogue from a textbook. I realize, however, like you said, that the teacher was working within a time-honored tradition. It was me who was out of step. I was paying for one-to-one lessons, but the teacher was unbending on that requirement. I fired her and found another teacher. 

 

In one apartment where I lived in an older section of town, every morning very early I used to hear a diligent middle school kid or two outside my window in the playground/exercise area reciting memorized lessons before heading off to school. Part of the drill was reciting them in a loud, confident voice. I admired his grit and determination! Hope they made high marks!