大山

[MarkKang]

Necroflux-

Quest is right. There are typical native speaker's imperfections and mistakes and there are those imperfections and mistakes of non-natives. You may think you are mimicing your tudor, but your imperfection will not be "native" like his is. Do your best to speak clear and fluent Mandarin.

[Mugi]

starvken,

Yes, I am a native mandarin speaker, living in shanghai, china.

I am even more intrigued now. Although I am not a native Mandarin speaker, I have little problem in being able to tell that 大山 is not Chinese, and although I couldn't pin him down to being Canadian, I would guess that he was North American. Maybe I have an advantage in being familiar with North Americans speaking Mandarin, so am able to distinguish certain similarities between his speech and other North Americans that exhibit much stronger 洋味儿. (Not sure though, just thinking aloud as it were...)

I don't wish to pry (and please feel free if for whatever reason you don't wish to tell me), but where exactly in China are you from? The reason I ask is that I find it strange that as a native Mandarin speaker that you cannot immediately tell that 大山 is a foreigner - I am wondering whether his 儿化音 overpowers your ability to pick up on the subtleties of his speech that otherwise give him away.

[MarkKang]

the subtleties of his speech that otherwise give him away.

I am curious, can you describe in detail how you can tell?

[Mugi]

I am curious, can you describe in detail how you can tell?

No, I can't (although I wish I could!). As I mentioned in an earlier post, I'm not sure what exactly gives it away. As I think gougou suggested, maybe its the occasional strange pitch or something. Will listen to him again over the weekend and try and pinpoint when I notice his speech is a bit "off".

My initial comment was just a casual observation. While it seems many people can't pick him as a foreigner, I wonder how truthful they're really being. I have Chinese friends who can tell immediately that he is a foreigner - but admittedly all but one comes from Beijing, and the other one (from Shanghai) is one of these natural language geniuses. Maybe it comes down to how sharp your ear is. I guess that as a non-native Mandarin speaker that can tell 大山 is a foreigner, I assumed that it must be all the more easier for native Mandarin speakers to do so. Apparently, this may not be the case.

[starvken]

Mugi,

I come from central part of china. I do not know how you can tell the difference between Dashan’s speaking and ordinary Chinese people’s, I really can’t. As you said, maybe you contact more native English speaker in your daily life that you can tell the subtleties of his speech. It is true of Chinese people coming from other parts of china. In south china Gguangdong, poople there have more local accent when speaks mandarin. For most of us, we can distinguish those Guangdong people immediately by his accent. In the same way, I can easily tell who comes from north china and who south china. For some people, I can even tell which province he comes from. However, for some others, I can only tell which part of china he comes but not exactly province. I think the ability of telling homeplace of a Chinese by his accent depends on whether or not you are familiar with his homeplace’s accent. For Dashan, because he live in china for a long time, his pronunciation and tone are both natural,. If I only heard his voice , I can’t tell if he is a foreigner or not.. In chinese words, Dashan’mandarin speaking is太溜了．

Btw, are you Japanese, I am considerating of learning Japanese language, not final decision.

[Mugi]

Thanks for your reply starvken. Have you ever had the chance to live in Beijing?

I'm not Japanese, just living in Japan. If you get the chance, you should learn some Japanese though. It shouldn't be too difficult for you, and the more languages one can speak the more interesting life becomes! (at least, that's how it is for me)

[Ferno]

starvken, what part of China would you think Dashan was from if you only heard his voice?

[Ncao]

I would say a Northerner

[carlo]

Uh oh, I see a battle of definitions coming.

Sorry, my bad. Only wished to point out that there is nothing 'objective' about being a native speaker. It's a conventional label, not something that really exists out there.

I'm a native speaker of Italian, and I am sure that there are people who speak and write *better* Italian than me. Certainly not more authentic, because by definition mine is, but clearer, more expressive, more powerful. Some of them may well be foreigners. After all, non-natives have won literature prizes.

I've met a number of foreign-born Chinese who grew up speaking both languages, and smetimes I can hear traces of the 'other language' when they are speaking Chinese, especially if it's a language I'm familiar with. In jargon this is called 'language interference', and it's more or less the equivalent of a monolingual's slip of the tongue.

btw, speaking of 大山, what about the gorgeous blonde that appears next to him in the 好记星 ad? 爱华？ She sounds pitch perfect to me.

[starvken]

only by the voice,I should say Dashan is from northern china .

I'v never been to beijing since age of six though i'v been to many other parts of china mostly on business.

could anyone kindly tell me what's the meaning of pitch,I can't understand the sentence "She sounds pitch perfect to me" in carlo's reply.thank you all in advance.

[Ncao]

could anyone kindly tell me what's the meaning of pitch,I can't understand the sentence "She sounds pitch perfect to me" in carlo's reply.thank you all in advance.

It means her Mandarin also sounds fluent.

[starvken]

It means her Mandarin also sounds fluent

thank you very much

[gato]

http://www.dashan.com.cn/jiemu/audio.htm

It's hard to tell, but it does seem that Dashan enunciates each syllable too clearly to be a native Beijinger. Listen to this solo act below, for example. It's only noticeable when he speaks for an extended period of time.

单口相声《返云南》(1020 KB)

http://www.dashan.com.cn/audio/FanYunnan-32.mp3

[necroflux]

Quest wrote:No, people who leave out the final "g" sounds would get laughed at even in Taiwan. There is a Taiwanese group 闪亮三姐妹 that often get mocked (by other artists) for their 台湾国语, signified by their confusion with the "n/ng, h/f, zcs/zhchsh" sounds.

I think I should clarify - some of the ng words I pronounce with more "g" in the back of my throat that others. I use less "g" with "neng, sheng, and cheng" than with "zhong, zhang, tong, tang, and ding".. etc. Here are some audio samples that will clarify this:

Of the following three audio samples, my neng2 and sheng1 most closely follow the third speaker (who I am going to guess is a taiwanese-based speaker):

Sound 1

Sound 2

Sound 3

Of these, the first sounds closest to how I pronounce "sheng1". The three others sound to me closer to "shou-ng", the first "shen-g" with a lighter g sound.

Sound 1

Sound 2

Sound 3

Sound 4

Actually my "cheng2" sounds like none of the following, which all have an obvious "ng" sound. I was taught what is essentially "chen", almost no g sound.

Sound 1

Sound 2

Sound 3

Sound 4

However, my "chang2" is heavy on the -ng, as with Sound 1:

Sound 1

Sound2

My Zhong1 is also heavy on the ng - almost exactly as the first of these:

Sound 1

Sound 2

Sound 3

Anyway, I don't think I'll have a problem adding more -ng to any of these sounds when I actually go to China/Taiwan next year, but in the near term I'll have to settle for being the Taiwanese-sounding-American. I suppose I should stay consistent with my choice of zheli and nali over zher and nar..

[Mugi]

I think your definition is circular. A native speaker speaks perfectly, but how do you know that someone is a native speaker? Well, 99% of the time you know it in advance.

Carlo, I don't follow your reasoning here. While I may know whether or not 99% of the people I speak to are native speakers of a given language, I never know in advance the linguistic backgound of 99% of the people I meet for the first time.

I deliberately tried to avoid defining a native speaker in specific terms as it is wrought with difficulties, especially when it comes to people brought up in a bilingual or multilingual environment. I'm afraid I don't know enough about that field of linguistics to even try at a definition. I will say however, that I would be surprised if any widely accepted definition included a condition of knowledge of a specific (pop) culture.

I guess I should have adopted your term of "authentic" over "better". That said, as I native English speaker it still doesn't sit right with me to say that an L2 speaker of English speaks "better" English than I do, no matter that they may be clearer, more expressive, more powerful. At the end of the day, I guess "better" is a subjective term.

[carlo]

Mugi, actually your point is a good one, the Chinese like to say that a lot ('You speak Chinese better than me!'), and usually that's a crass overstatement. But it's also not impossible that someone might speak better Chinese than someone else, if we take our (socially determined) notions of 'authenticity' and 'identity' out of the picture for a moment.

Ultimately it boils down to the question, what makes language learning worthwhile? If the whole purpose of spending years learning a language is to 'sound exactly like a native', I think we are wasting our time. IMHO, you have to be good enough to be accepted by a native audience while at the same time remain true to your own cultural background and have something interesting to say. That, I think, is *really* challenging. Think of Ha Jin writing in English, for example. Does anybody take Joseph Conrad to task because his prose is not idiomatic enough?

Only someone who doesn't know Dashan's background, or has never heard his voice before, can be an unbiased observer. Many Asian Americans get things like 'your English is very good' all the time, even though they are native speakers. Preconceptions can alter our perception.

By 'circular definitoin', I mean that the statement 'someone speaks perfect Chinese if and only if he is a native speaker' doesn't tell me anything new about native speakers or Chinese. Is it something I can test or measure? I doubt it.

[bokane]

I have several Beijingnese friends of about Dashan's vintage who say that while his imitation of Beijinghua is good enough to fool non-Beijingers, it still breaks down on irregularities of tone and reading that only lao Beijing would pick up.

For my part, I have to agree with the people who say they can just tell. I think it's the timbre of his voice more than anything else. Or perhaps it's just sour grapes.

[necroflux]

Carlo wrote: Ultimately it boils down to the question, what makes language learning worthwhile? If the whole purpose of spending years learning a language is to 'sound exactly like a native', I think we are wasting our time. IMHO, you have to be good enough to be accepted by a native audience while at the same time remain true to your own cultural background and have something interesting to say. That, I think, is *really* challenging. Think of Ha Jin writing in English, for example. Does anybody take Joseph Conrad to task because his prose is not idiomatic enough?

Very, very well said - that really clarified my own thinking and I think this is good advice for anyone learning a language. My goal is not to completely assimilate into a new culture but to help bridge a communication gap between (in this case) two of the most estranged cultures on the planet. And one does not need 100% lingual and cultural fluency in both languages to achieve that goal.

[Quest]

necroflux, I don't hear any n/ng problems in those audio files, they all have right ng sounds, except maybe the 3rd file with the "seng" but only slightly.

If you like the ng->n accent then by all means, I am just offering my opinion. I think it would be harder to go back and correct your mistakes later than to start with the right pronunciations in the beginning.

[necroflux]

Thanks for the input Quest. I have no vested interest in one particular pronunciation, just in what won't make me sound like an idiot. But I suppose any chosen form of Mandarin is going to sound weird somewhere, so I'll go for consistency.

I had my friend/tutor talk to his mom about it. Supposedly she switches back and forth from the two styles depending on her location: China or Taiwan. She also said that sometimes she just goes halfway in between the two. But she maintains that it's not a huge difference and wouldn't cause embarassment anywhere.

I see there is actually a concurrent discussion going on about the n-ng thing, hilariously enough, here.

They say the Suzhou accent (much like the Hangzhou accent) are the most beautiful of the accents, very soft and much like singing. I personally really liked their accent, quite nice!

Maybe try to get your friend to say "bing1 qi2 lin2" (ice cream) and see if you can hear the diff between the "ng" in bing and the "n" in lin....?

I guess I'm with "them", whoever that is. Anyway, sorry for the OT, I'll shut up now.