Joldo Mundus Posted October 23, 2005 at 04:55 PM Report Share Posted October 23, 2005 at 04:55 PM Nar3 is one syllable, but it is two characters (哪儿). Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
necroflux Posted October 23, 2005 at 06:21 PM Report Share Posted October 23, 2005 at 06:21 PM The 儿 is considered a separate sound in Chinese - it shows up a lot more in spoken Chinese in certain areas (Bejing area especially) than others. For instance, in many regions instead of "nar3" 哪儿 they will say "na3 li3" 哪里， instead of "zher4" 这儿 they will use "zhe4 li3" 这里。 里 means "inside of, within". This is not as clear for me, but I don't think all usage of 儿 is regional, for instance words like "daugther" 女儿 (nv3 er2) and "son" 儿子 (er2 zi) seem to be universal. There seems to be a difference between actual 词 that incorporate 儿 and the colloquial practice of attaching it to certain words (which I can't comment on at all since I am learning a non-Bejing style of speech). Please correct me where I'm wrong, it's hard to get a grasp of these dialect issues studying a language without being in the region. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanMN Posted October 23, 2005 at 10:37 PM Report Share Posted October 23, 2005 at 10:37 PM Luckily we just studied this at my Chinese Saturday-school... Beijing dialect often means that many words are pronounced with a rolled-r sound, for which the character is 儿 so the 'proper' characters for 'where are you?' are '你在哪里？' (ni zai na li) but to show the Beijing-dialect pronunciation the '儿‘ is added... 你在那儿里？ (ni zai nar li?) Hope this helps - this is my first post to this site Alan:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mugi Posted October 24, 2005 at 01:36 AM Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 at 01:36 AM 你在那儿里？ (ni zai nar li?) Not quite - it's either one or the other: 你在哪儿 or 你在哪里 Several scholars (sorry, don't have their names on hand, but can provide two of them tomorrow if anyone is interested) have convincingly argued that in fact 儿 and 里 in this case are derived from the same proto-suffix. Hence you'll never get them coming together (-儿里). 里 reflects an earlier pronunciation, 儿 a later development. This is not as clear for me, but I don't think all usage of 儿 is regional, for instance words like "daugther" 女儿 (nv3 er2) and "son" 儿子 (er2 zi) seem to be universal. 儿 can be a little confusing. Its usage in 女儿 and 儿子 for all intents and purposes is totally unrelated to its usage in 这儿, 那儿 and 哪儿, and indeed different again from its usage in the likes of 公园儿 (gong1 yuanr2). In both 女儿 and 儿子 it is pronounced as a separate syllable (er2) and has semantic value. These words are universal in Mandarin speaking areas/contexts. The likes of 这儿 or 公园儿 are regional though, and are basically restricted to northern Mandarin speaking areas. Joldo, the reason nar3 requires two characters even though it is only one syllable is that originally it was probably two syllables, but over time they have merged. The written form still represents an earlier spoken form. English has many similar examples - any of the words with "silent" letters. I had a friend once who grew up somewhere in the highlands of Scotland and he pronounced every consonant in the word "knight", although for most of us we now only pronounce the 'n' and the 't'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferno Posted October 24, 2005 at 01:44 AM Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 at 01:44 AM did he make the "g" and "h" sound seperate?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mugi Posted October 24, 2005 at 02:50 AM Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 at 02:50 AM Yes. A breathy 'h', not unlike the Mandarin 'h'. The 'i' was short like in "it". If I hadn't have known better, I would have thought he was trying to say "connect", with that breathy 'h' before the 't'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kudra Posted October 24, 2005 at 03:25 AM Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 at 03:25 AM possibly related to the German: Knecht Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond Posted October 24, 2005 at 03:58 AM Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 at 03:58 AM Yeah, so the retroflex 儿 is basically a northern Chinese thing. If you're looking for examples of words that I noticed that can be pronounced with or without an "er" sound at the end: 公园 park gong1 yuan2 or gong yuar2 花 flower hua1 or huar1 怎么样 how is it? zen3 me yang4 or zen3 me yar4 事 matters; business shi4 or shar4 玩 to have fun wan2 or war2 冰棍 popsicle (in stick form) bing1 gun4 or bing1 gur4 (like gwer) People from places like Harbin (way up north) use some of these, but people in Beijing are infamous for how many things they add the "er" sound to their words... they keep the same number of syllables but kinda "twist" the words with an er. (I only say twist because my ears have been trained with standard mandarin, not as an insult) Hope that helps! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HashiriKata Posted October 24, 2005 at 07:56 AM Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 at 07:56 AM The likes of 这儿 or 公园儿 are regional though, and are basically restricted to northern Mandarin speaking areas.Be careful not to equate 这 with 这儿. They're NOT regional, but separate words throughout China:这, 那，哪 = this, that, which 这儿, 那儿，哪儿 = here, there, where Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mugi Posted October 25, 2005 at 03:24 PM Report Share Posted October 25, 2005 at 03:24 PM Be careful not to equate 这 with 这儿. They're NOT regional, but separate words throughout China: HashiriKata, I guess my post wasn't explicit enough. Claiming that 这儿 is a regional usage was meant to be in contrast to 这里. Putting it next to 公园儿 was in hindsight inviting confusion. Apologies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HashiriKata Posted October 25, 2005 at 08:25 PM Report Share Posted October 25, 2005 at 08:25 PM No problems, Mugi! I've long adopted the view that misundertanding is the norm and proper understanding is the exception, so we're still within the norm there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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