卷舌音 (Retroflex sounds)

[Altair]

Does anyone know where the retroflex sounds (卷舌音) come from in Mandarin and why other dialects do not have them? Did Mandarin add them, or did other dialects drop them?Did Middle Chinese have them?

If people cannot curl their tongues, do they pronounce 日 (ri) like 意?

[Quest]

I think 日 and 意 have "different" vowels. So a flattened 日 is still different.

1，历史上中国北方长期沦为异族统治。北方游牧民族多学汉语，部分融入汉族。他们讲的汉语自然不太正宗。从语音历史资料可看出，入派它声始于元，清定型，期间明恢复；全浊音清化始于五代宋辽时期的北方，至清代声母脱落、[v]并入[w]。因浊音音低，传不远，而入声音短，拖不长，皆不方便在草原上远距离对话，所以北方游牧民族发不出这些音素，入主中原后学汉语时，也就没学好这些音。就好像今天的北方人讲英语时，常发不好短音和浊音，把[v] 读成[w]。另，由于他们发不出（fong，vong）等音节，“东、冬”韵的“风、凤”等就归入了 “eng”韵；发不出（vi）,“微、维”等字就改为（wei）音，北方人多将V读为“（wei）”。翘舌音也非古汉语固有音素，语音史上有古无舌上音之说，其出现在唐朝中期的北方，可能和先期融入汉族的南匈奴、东突厥等有关。北方话是吴、粤、闽、客、官五大方言中不规则变化最多的，有大量半字先生读法，可能和早期北方民族汉语水平不高有关，如“帮（b）[p]”母字“秘”转为“明（m）”母，是受字符“宓”影响。故北方话对传统汉语音韵结构继承较少。因此，今日北方话曾被章太炎先生称为“金元虏语”即满蒙人的异族语言。

http://spaces.msn.com/members/foreignerofshanghai/Blog/cns!1pSaokeXjnz0DHAxr4A8Ggsg!710.entry

[Gary Soup]

My impression is that the retroflex "r" sound is not typical of Mandarin generally, but a characteristic of the Beijing dialect. I've also found it quite startling to encounter, since many Chinese speakers have difficulty with the full "r" sound generally, and the retroflex "r" is a sound that trips up highly cultivated speakers of a lot of Western languages as well. Beijingers handle it better than, say, Parisians.

Anyway, as they say in England, "I love the way she rolls her arse."

[Lu]

Not sure about ri, but I do know rang can become yang or lang, reng can become leng, rong can become long, rou can become lou or you... etc. Bianr, wanr etc are of course bian, wan etc on Taiwan, but Taiwanese sometimes also drop the -r in er (two), and it becomes a.

[Altair]

Thanks for all your answers.

I think 日 and 意 have "different" vowels. So a flattened 日 is still different.

What about 肉 and 又, are these two still different for such speakers?

Not sure about ri, but I do know rang can become yang or lang, reng can become leng, rong can become long, rou can become lou... etc.

What about 入? Does it sound like English "Lou," like English "zoo," like English "you," or like Mandarin 欲 (with the different vowel)?

In reading the passage Quest quoted, I realize that I may be confused about some Chinese terminology. My dictionaries have some confusing definitions. Do all these terms refer to the same set of consonants?:

卷舌音

翘舌音

舌上音

I am particularly unsure about 舌上音, which would seem to refer to pinyin "j," "q," and "x," and not to "zh," "ch," and "shi."

有古无舌上音之说

Does this mean: "There was an ancient way of speaking that lacked palatal sounds"?

入派它声始于元，清定型，期间明恢复

My head is spinning with possible interpretations of this phrase. What exactly does it mean?

如“帮（b）[p]”母字“秘”转为“明（m）”母，是受字符“宓”影响

I had always wondered about this, since Cantonese had the initial "b" sound, as in bei6 su1 ("secretary").

The passage as a whole seems quite interesting. I would expect that it is also somewhat controversial. One of the things it makes me wonder about is why Mandarin would end up with pairs like 社 and 色, 迟 and 词, and 哲 and 则. Why would some sounds be affected by the mispronunciations of immigrants, and not others? I wonder if there is something about such pairs in Cantonese, Shanghainese, or other dialects that might suggest an explanation.

I realize that I am asking a great deal of questions. If folks could help with even a few at a time, I would be very appreciative.

[Quest]

In reading the passage Quest quoted, I realize that I may be confused about some Chinese terminology. My dictionaries have some confusing definitions. Do all these terms refer to the same set of consonants?:

那么，声母x 从何来？古音究竟是怎么样变化的，现在还不甚清楚。除了清代段玉裁提出的所谓“谐声必同部”之外，关于音韵学的研究理论，前人还提出了“古无轻唇音”（清人钱大昕），“古无舌上音”（清人钱大昕），“古无舌面音”等一系列古语音学理论。近人章太炎先生还提出“娘日二纽归泥”（纽，声母也。）“古无轻唇音”这里，笔者不说。“古无舌上音”中舌尖前音和舌尖后音，即z、c、s和zh、ch、sh、r在上古语音系统中是没有的。至于“古无舌面音”，所谓舌面音是指j、q、x，在上古语音系统中也是没有的。

http://www.jsw.com.cn/zk/gb/content/2004-06/15/content_615842.htm

入派它声始于元，清定型，期间明恢复

I think it means: the sounds of the new comers were introduced in the Yuan Dynasty, and "stabilized" in the Qing Dyansty, in that period the original sounds were revived during the Ming Dynasty.

What about 肉 and 又, are these two still different for such speakers?

Yea I think there are people that do not distinguish these two.

Why would some sounds be affected by the mispronunciations of immigrants, and not others?

Maybe some words were used more often? The pronunciations of less frequently used words were decided later in a different period when they gained more popularity?

[Lu]

What about 肉 and 又, are these two still different for such speakers?

No, some people say rou as you.

[Guest Pipas]

Yeah, and some people say [Yenminbi] in English

[HashiriKata]

[Yenminbi] is the new currency for trading between Japan and China.

[Lu]

Am in Taiwan now, uploaded money on my phone, and heard the lady on the tape pronounce si4 (4) as ri4. I'm quite sure I didn't mishear this. Never heard this change before.

What about 入? Does it sound like English "Lou," like English "zoo," like English "you," or like Mandarin 欲 (with the different vowel)?

I guess I've heard this one, but I don't remember what it sounded like. As a rule the vowel doesnt change, so I think it'll become lu4.

[stephanhodges]

Sometimes when I convert audio to MP3 format, it can mess up the sounds a bit. I'm only suggesting that a compressed recording shouldn't be considered an "authority" on a correct pronunciation or variation, etc.

I would also be suspicious that the phone audio has high and low frequencies removed or reduced, since that's how phone lines here in the US work.

[Guest Pipas]

Besides, "儿化" often changes the tone of the word: 慢慢地 man4man1de:clap

[nipponman]

Besides, "儿化" often changes the tone of the word: 慢慢地 man4man1de

Really? I didn't know that. (I dread asking but...) are there are general rules to govern this or do I just have to wing it?

[Guest Pipas]

I'm sure only about one-syllable reduplicated adjectives such as

好好(兒)的 (hao3haor1 de)

慢慢(兒)的 (man4manr1 de)

早早(兒)的 (zao3zaor1 de)

(http://rthk27.rthk.org.hk/php/pthleague2004/messages.php?gid=1&id=33&page_no=10&subpage_no=1&order=desc&suborder=desc)

***

Take a look at that:

Hirayama, Hisao, A diachronic study of a type of Pekinese tone_sandhi co_ocurring with retroflexation(410)

The paper presents a diachronic explanation of the tone_sandhi rule in some Pekinese two_syllabic words with retroflexation by which the non_third tones of the second syllable change to the third tone, ex. gｕòｄǎｏｒ (过道儿). This rule of tone_sandhi might be the result of the fusion of a neutral tone syllable and the morpheme er which also might have the neutral tone. The tone_sandhi rule in the reduplicated forms of mono_syllabic adjectives with retroflexation, ex. ｈǎｏｈāｏｒ (好好儿)，might also be formed by a similar process, but influenced by the phonetic circumstances, the result of the fusion was the first tone.

[Guest Pipas]

（D）形容词重叠的变调

1、单音形容词重叠，无论是何声调，后一音节读阴平，这时多伴有儿化。

轻轻儿（的） 好好儿（的） 慢慢儿（的）

2、“ABB”式的形容词，后边的叠音后缀有一部分读成阴平。

黑漆漆 亮堂堂 绿油油 红彤彤

3、“AABB”式重叠后的形容词，第二音节读轻声，后两个音节读阴平。

认认真真 舒舒服服 快快乐乐

(http://xcsx.cn/readnews.asp?newsid=1367)普通话练习材料下载

[atitarev]

While we are on pronunciation

1) Can I ask how exactly the -n final in Chinese is mapped to English, are they the same? My language exchange partner (from North) says the English "on" as "ong" and has difficulty pronouncing it as "on", I thought that Chinese final -n is exactly like the English -n.

2) Also, is there a palatalisation in Chinese (if you know what it means)? is n in "niao" palatalised (softened to n') or the same as in "na".

3) How would I teach my language partner to pronounce the Russian "R" - written as "P" in cyrillic (it's the same same as Italian, Spanish, Southern German, Polish "R", etc. but different from English or (standard) German, French or Japanese). Did anyone have this experience? Does it remind any sound in a Chinese dialect or an Asian language I could refer to?

4) Please explain the terminology used for the Chinese "R" used in initials ("re", "ru", etc) and finals -r (yidia'r) or "er" (2). Is the second one called "retroflex"? What are the international transcription symbols for both?

PS I am teaching English/Russian to my language exchange partners, they teach me Mandarin, very exciting!

[carlo]

AFAIK Middle Chinese didn't have 翘舌音, the 平/翘 distinction is a Mandarin thing. The 'curling of the tongues' probably took place gradually over time. As retroflex sounds are relatively rare and a feature of Northern Chinese, some people say that they came into Chinese from Tungusic, but who knows, they may well have developed spontaneously, after all Australian and African languages have retroflex sounds too.

Can I ask how exactly the -n final in Chinese is mapped to English, are they the same? My language exchange partner (from North) says the English "on" as "ong" and has difficulty pronouncing it as "on", I thought that Chinese final -n is exactly like the English -n.

There is no -on final in Mandarin, more generally, there is no back vowel that is followed by an alveolar nasal. Say 观光 in Mandarin, the first a in guan is much more to the front than the second a in guang. So the problem is not the nasal, but the syllabic structures of Mandarin vs English.

Also, is there a palatalisation in Chinese (if you know what it means)? is n in "niao" palatalised (softened to n') or the same as in "na".

I think palatalization is not standard.

How would I teach my language partner to pronounce the Russian "R"

A flap (kind of like Japanese r) is acceptable in Italian I think, I don't know about Russian. Anyway, you could start from a dental (like d in 的) and teach him to vibrate the tip of the tongue.

Please explain the terminology used for the Chinese "R" used in initials ("re", "ru", etc) and finals -r (yidia'r) or "er" (2)

Initial r is an apical retroflex, sort of like English s in pleasure, but without palatalisation. The situation with finals is more complicated, erhua changes the vowel.

[atitarev]

Thanks for your explanations, Carlo.

[amego]

Does anyone know where the retroflex sounds (卷舌音) come from in Mandarin and why other dialects do not have them? Did Mandarin add them, or did other dialects drop them?Did Middle Chinese have them?

If people cannot curl their tongues, do they pronounce 日 (ri) like 意?

singaporeans don't speak with -r sound...but we can pronounce 日, and 熱 and other r- sounds correctly...

What about 肉 and 又, are these two still different for such speakers?

anyway last time i had a chinese teacher from China Xiamen, and his 肉 becomes "zzou",and 熱 becomes "le"...i took a while to adapt...