novemberfog Posted January 7, 2006 at 02:04 AM Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 at 02:04 AM I work full-time and do not have a lot of free time to study everyday. It is hard to fit overtime work (I need the money), exercise, and study into the daily schedule. But this year I have decided will be the year I speak Chinese. I am not a beginner but not advanced either. I work with upper-intermediate level texts for reading and writing, but I can't speak Chinese! I know the words and grammar, and when I visited Taiwan I could speak enough to get around in the countryside. But...I can't speak. When I try to make sentences, Chinese look at me and I can tell they cannot understand. And...I think it is because I am not good with tones. I am told my pronunciation is clear, but the tones are almost always mixed up. I know part of this is that I get nervous when I speak Chinese. So I want to improve my tones so that I can be understand. I need ideas. I have read threads and seen what people do. I have tried radio and really it is just too advanced for me. Due to the difficulty, I find it hard to regularly listen to the broadcasts. Also...somedays I can't steam the audio from CRI. Too many listeners I guess, or too much lag. So what can I do to get a good foudation, yet not require three hours of listening daily? So far, I have this planned: I walk 4 km one-way to get to work, so I bought a little iPod and hope to get the Pimsleur Mandarin. My father used the German series when he was younger and said it really helped. Some exercise and some study knocked out with "one stone" there. I have found a conversation partner (a native, professional Chinese instructor) who is willing to help in exchange for English lessons. But due to work we cannot meet so often. I am guessing at most twice a month. Is there anywhere to get mp3 recordings of radio broadcasts, maybe just headline news stories? I can't really listen to it live due to chaotic work schedules, but if I could get a recording, I could read the transcript on the morning train and listen while walking or while cooking dinner. I doubt there are such recordings though. What do all of the other full-time workers in this forum do to keep their listening/speaking progress from staggering too much? How do you manager your work, study, and exercise? Thanks for your opinions and comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wushijiao Posted January 7, 2006 at 03:31 AM Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 at 03:31 AM I’ve also made a small list of “New Year’s Resolutions” as far as studying Chinese. Of them is to improve my tones. Right now, my tones are horrible. Or to be more precise, they don’t exist. As I like to call it, I have a habit of speaking in the “foreign neutral tone”. It could be months or years to know if I’ll see any improvement. But here’s how I’m going about it, at least. 1) Slow down my speaking speed. I can speak in Chinese fairly fast, but I can’t speak tonefully with any speed whatsoever. So, I’m forcing myself to slow down speed. 2) Read dialogues while making sure every tone is correct. Luckily, my patient wife helps me with this, otherwise I’d paid a tutor because it’s rather mind numbing. Basically, I bought a business textbook based on dialogues that includes pinyin and tones. I go over it about 30 minutes per night, making sure every tone is right. 3) Swallow my pride. It’s highly embarrassing to find that even I’ve been mispronouncing the most “Chinese 101”ish words. For example, I’ve been saying 我们 wrong all these years. I’ve pronounced the third tone in 我 as a mixture of 3rd and 2nd, while not giving the 们 equal time to the 我. Similarly, my second tone is good, but doesn’t rise quite enough. My fourth needs to be stronger, too. I’ve also tried to ask my wife to be very specific about what I’m doing wrong. I’ve found that I’ll mispronounce something. Then she’ll say it again with more emphasis. I’ll say it a few times, and finally stumble upon the perfect pronunciation by luck. That’s not as good as knowing what specifically I’m doing wrong, such as not giving equal time to each syllable, and instead transposing English stress patterns on the Chinese. 4) Tape myself. In my mind, I pronounce the tones nice and strong. But when I hear myself on tape, I realized my tones were all somewhat flat. In fact, I read out a passage in which I thought I was ridiculously over exaggerating the tones. As it turns out, I wasn’t at all. Anyway, whether any of this will work is anyone’s guess. I have to unlearn thousands of hours of speaking incorrectly, developing bad habits. I'd also be very interested to hear how anyone has reformed their tones. As far as balancing work with studying, that's a tough issue. I try to make use of all the dead time per day, and combine working out with studying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferno Posted January 7, 2006 at 07:46 AM Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 at 07:46 AM you know about www.chinesepod.com already, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowdh Posted January 7, 2006 at 08:29 AM Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 at 08:29 AM I was thinking of Chinesepod.com as well... this is an excellent resource that I have been using for the last month or so... It is getting better and better and is well worth looking into... also you can I believe download audio from CRI (but I havent tried that yet so dont quote me)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novemberfog Posted January 7, 2006 at 11:31 PM Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 at 11:31 PM I did not know about Chinese pod. Thanks for the link. I will have to look at it in more detail. Looks good though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinaPeace Posted January 7, 2006 at 11:35 PM Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 at 11:35 PM Novemberfog: Congrats on getting to the intermediate level. Instead of the i-pod, I would highly recomend using a CD or cassette player. To really practice, you need to be able to stop and rewind and listen again (and sometimes again, and again, and again, and again) to make sure you heard it right, and that you are sayinig it right. The 4KM to work will help immensely. I've also walked with the headphones on during lunch, though I mainly listened during my commute in the car. I also was working full-time AND have three kids. But it was a long commute. Pimleur is good for someone starting from scratch, but if you already have an intermediate grasp, I would recommend getting some tape/CD series that comes with a text, so you can check yourself and make sure, again, that what you think you're hearing is what you are hearing ("I think that was 1st-tone followed by 2nd-tone, but I should check.") The New Practical Chinese Reader Series is good, and you can get either the tapes or the CD's. Volume One will have full PinYin transliteration, Volume Two will have characters with the tone marks. Volume Three and above, though, will generally only have characters. Also, though Volumes One and Two may be too easy for you, they have regular pronunciation excercises along with the other texts and sentences. You can really get the tones and pronunciation in general down well by doing this. It also helps with general listening skills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnmck Posted January 8, 2006 at 05:28 PM Report Share Posted January 8, 2006 at 05:28 PM Instead of the i-pod, I would highly recomend using a CD or cassette player. To really practice, you need to be able to stop and rewind and listen again (and sometimes again, and again, and again, and again) to make sure you heard it right, and that you are sayinig it right. I do not know about an i-pod but I use an mp3 player and I can rewind with it. I find it better, quicker and more convenient than a tape recorder. Attention: not all mp3 players have this function - buy carefully. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novemberfog Posted January 9, 2006 at 03:01 AM Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 at 03:01 AM ChinaPeace and Johnmck: Thanks for your replies. I already have an iPod, it supports all the features that my old cassette player has. But it is small and light which is what I like. I take train for 10 km first, and it is really bumpy so a CD player won't work so well. Then the last 4 km are walking and I can use anything there. But I just think the iPod will be easiest. Also, I don't have to carry around media, just load everything on the iPod and I can listen to any of the lessons. I know that Pimsleur is going to be a step backwards, but I am not sure how else I will correct my poor pronunciation. My reading/writing level is intermediate, but I think the speaking/listening level is still beginner, honestly. It is embarrassing. I really wish I could afford school, but it costs so much and I'm just tyring to get by right now. Right now I am saving money for a dream, if you will. It is a 4 km walk one way in the countryside, but I have to keep steady pace to make it to work in time, which is why reading a book as a walk is not really an option. I know I will slow down and if I am late to work they dock an hour of pay! I have tried tapes, I used that awful "Integrated Chinese" text in the two courses I did actually study formally at a school. But I found after listening once I knew what was coming, and there wasn't enough material. It takes me 35 minutes to walk to 4 km, and the "Integrated Chinese" lessons are only about 5 minutes each. Currently I am studying from two texts that I really like "Taiwan Today" and "A Text for a New China". I will see if they have tapes for those books. I really like them because I learn so much grammar, but my speaking really is not progressing at all. I was also looking at Rosetta Stone, but honestly computer software bores me. I work 12 to 13 hours a day so I don't have so much free time. I know that is a poor excuse, but such is life. I never could use "computer" learning things, even for my job. I just need to dive in and do it myself, take notes, figure things out on my own. I also looked into the Foreign Service series for the USA govt., but that is above my price range, honestly. But I am really open to any ideas. Do you recommend any listening courses? I know they must be out there, but I only know of Cheng & Tsui and the Far East publishers for Chinese textbooks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowdh Posted January 9, 2006 at 07:53 AM Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 at 07:53 AM To be honest I dont think the pimsleur series is a step back if you are looking to improve pronounciation and listening... esp the later series... plus I have all my audio on my MP3 player and it works wonderfully... Have you perhaps looked at the New Practical Chinese Reader cds (they are supposed to go with the book but could be helpful)...?? Also are you able to download the chinese pod audio files and then put them on you ipod... they would help and are different so you wont get used to them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrbt Posted January 9, 2006 at 10:58 PM Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 at 10:58 PM Also try a book called "100 Putonghua situations." It's got 3 CDs that have short Mandarin conversations, starting at a basic level and getting into intermediate. For each one they pronounce new vocab then run thru the dialog twice. The accompanying book has characters (simp) with pinyin and English. It's maybe a $20 investment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geraldc Posted January 9, 2006 at 11:25 PM Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 at 11:25 PM I wouldn't get hung up on tones, you don't need perfect tones to speak Chinese. You need good tones so you don't "sound" funny when you talk, but getting the tones wrong doesn't necessarily make things incomprehensible. The main problems that cause people not to understand you are: using the wrong vocab, or getting the grammar wrong. To be honest I think there might be a some mental block in some Chinese that means that when a westerner speaks Chinese to them, they just can't process it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imron Posted January 10, 2006 at 12:04 AM Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 at 12:04 AM You might not need "perfect" tones, but it sure helps if your tones are decent. If your pronunciation is bad, then it doesn't matter how good your grammar/vocab are, because people won't be able to understand what you're saying. Ok, sure once someone has gotten used to your accent, or if the person you're talking to has had lots of exposure to foreigners speaking toneless Chinese, it might not be a problem. But this isn't always going to be the case. Imagine if you will, a person speaking English with a very thick foreign accent. If you try, and you listen hard enough, then yes, you can understand what they say - but communication with them isn't exactly easy, and sometimes can border on being painful. The same is true with Chinese. The difference between good tones and bad tones, is the difference between effortless understanding, and having to struggle with every conversation. I see this everyday with friends of mine who never bothered to learn tones and now find themselves wondering why people don't understand them. So, make an effort to get your tones right, and it will make everyday communication a whole lot easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yingguoguy Posted January 10, 2006 at 02:13 AM Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 at 02:13 AM To be honest I think there might be a some mental block in some Chinese that means that when a westerner speaks Chinese to them, they just can't process it. If the person you're talking to has had lots of exposure to foreigners speaking toneless Chinese, it might not be a problem ... Imagine if you will, a person speaking English with a very thick foreign accent. If you try, and you listen hard enough, then yes, you can understand what they say Before coming to China, I had a weeks worth of Mandarin lessons with a native Hakka speaker. My Chinese is rudimentary, but we managed to communicate quite well and I was feeling positive when I left. Then I arrived in northern China and found I was having problems with very simple things, it took me three weeks to get the name of the town I live in good enough to get a train ticket back there. While I can't quite blame the Chinese for not understanding my horrible, I think it's true that some people are better or more used to coping with mangled tones. Especially if they are non-native speakers themselves. Since English is such an international language we're used to hearing a English spoken with accents from around the world with enormous variety. The Chinese basically just have Dashan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferno Posted January 10, 2006 at 03:23 AM Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 at 03:23 AM I don't think it's about being "used" to accents - Mandarin just doesn't have the redundancy of English so it only takes a few errors by a non-Native speaker and you become incomprehensible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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