The Beijing Tea Scam (and a few others)

[studychinese]

Silent, the conspiracy to defraud is the aspect of this that is illegal.

Even if there menu is there, they always use misdirection. For example when I did this (knowingly) and I ordered tea, the girl also ordered tea while looking at the same page.... But the tea that she ordered was actually another expensive tea on the back page of the menu. See my thread scam city Shanghai for the full details.

You know that the owners of the shop are doing something illegal because they don't want the police involved.

[Silent]

 

Silent, the conspiracy to defraud is the aspect of this that is illegal.

This sounds like a conviction without proof. The fact that it's intuitively extremely unfair does not mean it's illegal. As I wrote before from a western perspective I think it might be illegal due to a lack of transparency about commissions/financial interests , but I've my doubts such transparency laws exist in China.

 

 

You know that the owners of the shop are doing something illegal because they don't want the police involved.

I don't know about Beijing or Shanghai, in many places with comparable scams they don't care if the police gets involved. The police may even be in on it.

 

There are however other explanations for not wanting the police involved. E.g Obviously not every setup will be the same and without doubt regularly the scam is performed 'incorrectly' and as a cpnsequence illegal things may be done. Specially in the money collection phase of the scam. So maybe the police not getting involved is just a security precaution in case errors are made. The hassle and paperwork it may involve can be a motivator to keep police away also police on the premises looks bad and makes people suspect, not a good thing if you want to rip them off. In China I've the impression the rights of tourist are often higher valued then that of the Chinese by officials. So it's far from sure that the police will solve the issue in a legally correct way. If the police gets involved too often it may be experienced as a nuisance and make the tea house loose goodwill, authorities might even start to search for unrelated issue's that otherwise no-one would care about.  Even in the Netherlands I know that bars are 'hassled' and even closed under the pretext of security issue's due to too many incidents between customers that need police intervention. So, at least theoretically, you can get a bar closed by starting a brawl there every night.

[studychinese]

Silent, it's illegal, in China.

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/671991.shtml

What exactly is the point of trying to provide intellectual cover for a practice that is immoral, unethical, and illegal? Some form of misguided libertarianism?

[Silent]

 

Silent, it's illegal, in China.

BTW, the case in the story looks a bit different from my experience in that the bill was far bigger and that they messed with the drinks, it mentioned watered down drinks which undoubtedly is illegal. (imho a silly thing to do if you're overcharging excessively) It doesn't tell what the charges will be. So in my opinion this article does nothing to my claim that there is nothing illegal about what I experienced and that if the scam is done 'correctly' nothing illegal happens. Obviously this does not mean absolutely nothing illegal happens, if people are looking for the limits of what can legally be done they may cross the line occasionally. There are idiots that see the example and think they can do it 'better' and cross the line of what is legal (seems to have happened here) etc.

 

 

 

What exactly is the point of trying to provide intellectual cover for a practice that is immoral, unethical, and illegal?

Proclaiming that someone does illegal things without proof or even being able to explain what's illegal about it is slander which is immoral, unethical and illegal. I believe that in principle the tea house scam is within the limits of the law. However the moment people get carried away in bill collection they're likely to cross the line into the illegal. If people get greedy and charge really excessive prices things may become illegal, at least based on the law in several western countries. For China and many other developing countries I'm not so sure they have laws regarding overcharging and transparency, they may, but I wouldn't bet on it.

[studychinese]

So you are saying that I can't say that a store is scamming people unless proven in a court of law when they are scamming people, but you are happy to say that I am committing 'slander' (pretty sure you mean libel here) without even giving me the same benefit of the doubt that you give coffee shop scammers! How absolutely ridiculous.

[langxia]

Legal - Illegal...

 

Does it really matter ? What happens here is that we as travellers can´t trust anyone any more and that is the disgusting part about it. Even if it is not really illegal, you feel cheated if it happens to you! And that is all that people will remember. At that moment no one really cares if it is legal or not.

 

When I travel I want to meet new people and if I have to be careful and can´t really trust them then it is not possible to do that in a good way any more.

[Silent]

 

What happens here is that we as travellers can´t trust anyone any more and that is the disgusting part about it.

Has it ever been different? There always have been and will be people that are after their own interests and don't mind to rip off other people.

 

 

So you are saying that I can't say that a store is scamming people unless proven in a court of law when they are scamming people, but you are happy to say that I am committing 'slander' (pretty sure you mean libel here) without even giving me the same benefit of the doubt that you give coffee shop scammers! How absolutely ridiculous.

Yes I mean libel, sorry I didn't know the legal English term for it.

 

You can say whatever you like but doing so may have legal consequences. An important principle in many law systems is that one is innocent unless proven otherwise (beyond reasonable doubt). So if you accuse someone you better be able to prove it in case they sue you.

[Simon_CH]

I think you're getting a bit carried away here Silent... There is no shortage of laws that could be involved in the classic tea scam that would make it illegal. Charging customers different prices for the same product, working for an establishment on a commission basis while pretending to be a regular customer, enforcing the payment through coercion only for the victim and so forth... and then there's the law of obligations where intentionally misleading a party about a contract nullifies a contract and so forth... 

 

If indeed the girls tell a customer that they work for a tea house, or it can be reasonably deduced through work clothes or otherwise, if the price is either communicated beforehand or is charged to all customers of that tea house, if the customer simply receives the check and only has to pay for what he ordered it is indeed completely legal. Any of these points disregarded they are getting into trouble with the law. 

 

Let's not forget that Chinese law is very similar to the body of law found in Europe - it's only the enforcement that may differ a bit ;-)

[roddy]

" What happens here is that we as travellers can´t trust anyone any more"

I think that's overly negative. Get away from the tourist streets, engage with who you choose, rather than who chooses you, and you'll find a country full of people who have no interest in your money whatsoever. Apart from being curious about what your salary is. And how much welfare payments are at home. And what a taxi would cost. 

 

While you want to be alert to these scams, don't end up regarding everyone with suspicion. You'll waste more than money.  

[AdamD]

I'm with roddy. In November a bloke in the Shanghai suburbs invited me to undergo a completely spontaneous fitness assessment at some gym. It was fine, it was authentic, and I got about 40 minutes of language practice out of it. Nothing sinister happened. I even bumped into the same bloke a few days later, and he was excited to see me.

 

Plenty of people are real and deserving of our trust. China especially is an incredibly polite country overflowing with genuine people. Just take sensible precautions and don't do anything that forfeits your control.

[Jen001]

Hi guys,

I just got back from a trip to Mongolia with a transit in Beijing. Had a long lay over of 9hrs so decided to have a walk in the city.

I got completely caught in that tea house scam and feel so pissed with that till now.

Mine has a small variation to the stories I found here so I think I had to tell u all about that.

As was a last minute decision regarding going outside the airport, just grabbed a map at the airport and went free style in the city.

Was at South entrance of the palace museum, when I was approached by 2 Chinese girls in their 30s. Told them I did not understand Chinese and then they replied in English asking where I was from etc and how my English was good ( I'm used to that kind of questions as I'm a Mauritian of Chinese origin) and that they were on holidays here and they were looking for Tianmen square. I had a map in hand, so I started looking for it for them. Then they asked where I was going and maybe we can walk together there if going same place. Usually I'm really wary of strangers but this time thought what the heck lets do with some local companions.

As we walked a lot of pollen or whatever floating around and all of us coughing with that. We had a walk and then we were passing by an old tea house, one of them proposed to stop for a drink for our dried throats (due to all the coughing). Found nothing unusual so I agreed.

They took us to a private room with a table for 4 and when I asked why, they replied Chinese are very noisy and there are only private rooms to talk more easily (stupid me I bought that and there was indeed only 2-3 rooms). Menu was given to us and I did found the prices quite high (but I once bought oolong tea in Taiwan duty free airport which were quite expensive so I thought must be ok). I let them order and we had quite a nice chat with the girls telling me about their trips and that they were kindergarten teachers and piano teacher. We had glasses of wine also to cheer for our meeting (they had 2 each and I did not think much about that).

As I was not feeling so well with stomach cramp they were quite caring and asking for water to take medicine and recommended ordering some dishes and letting me choose with the menu again as I did not yet have lunch and was already 6pm. So of course my guard was 90% down by that time.

When we finished eating bill was asked and one of the girls showed me telling me that was our orders. Stupid me I did not pay much attention to that and as the prices were kinda high and I told them so we split and the owner did give me the price after split and I saw the girls gave their credit card and cash of 500 y (each had to pay 676y). They recommended I paid by cc card but I insisted on cash as I had some with me, ended up giving 700y (one of the girls asked if she could borrow 100y from me also! But when I said no, she justified herself saying as I was sitting near her that's y she asked me but it is ok her friend with pay the rest with the cc card). I asked for a bill and they did give me one for the 676y and in Chinese, so no idea at all what they have written on that). There was no change returned to me but I did not bother with that.

We even walked to the main road afterwards and from far, we checked out Tianmen square and they said it must be closed as already night and their friend told them it closes at 5pm. Not knowing anything I accepted and they even accompanied me to the subway station and helping me out. I wanted to go to wufong so took a subway there and one of the girls seemed so caring telling me to be careful as she thinks dangerous at night when alone and even asked for my email address which I gave her!

It's only when I was in the train back to the airport that I started thinking about the bill and how high it was! And some strange behaviours like I saw coke cans ordered when I don't remember we ordered that or several more tea pots appearing on the table and that she gave her card but I never saw her sign or get a receipt back!

I just feel so pissed now that I got caught in such a scam and I have a really bad image of the Chinese people and China in general (I also had an episode with a hotel booked for me near the airport). And feel that all Chinese are so distrustful

[AdamD]

And feel that all Chinese are so distrustful

 

I understand that you had a bad experience, but the vast majority of Chinese people are not operating scams. I've only ever had incredible, authentic experiences with people in China (I'd learnt about the major scams and can recognise them). If you don't trust anyone, you'll miss out on too much.

[Jen001]

Quite understand your point Adam. However, think it will take some time to think well of China people for the moment. As I mentioned I also had an episode on same trip for my hotel booking - checked in at 11 pm - and they tried to put me in a massage room! And tried to make me pay 400y (regular room was 508 y) (they used my booked room for someone else).

Not a good experience for my first trip to this country ( and I've always wanted to go there).

I guess I will certainly go there again and be much more on my guard.

[studychinese]

 

 

I understand that you had a bad experience, but the vast majority of Chinese people are not operating scams.

 

I don't think this is a meaningful distinction for a tourist. The scammers are a self-selected sample of the Chinese population, and it is quite possible that for the average tourists 100% of unsolicited offers of friendship or companionship are of this nature. That people then mistrust Chinese people is entirely natural and is an aspect of Social Darwinism. If Chinese have a reputation for this kind of thing it is because it is happening at a much higher level than the countries that the tourists are from.

[roddy]

Shame about the scam, but thanks for coming along to let us know. As for the hotel - to be honest, if you turn up at 11pm and haven't warned them you're arriving late, and they don't have a phone number for you (not sure if this was the case) then I'm not too surprised if they've given your room to someone else. 

 

If you post a picture of the receipt we can probably tell you what it says - not that it'll help... 

[Jen001]

well indeed the impression that you have on a country's is based on the persons with whom you interact there and now if all who approach you are scammers...

For the hotel, did send them a mail to let them know I was arriving very late and asking about the shuttle (never got a reply by the way), but there was someone waiting to take me to the meeting point. For the room, the girl at the reception told me I did a booking not yet paid and thats y they used my room. well duh when booking if payment is with hotel when checking in I do not see any logic behind that answer.

[Lu]

Was that really a scam though? As I understand it, Jen001 paid 700 yuan for expensive tea, wine (which is always a bit expensive in China) and dinner, in a restaurant near Tian'anmen Square - not exactly the cheapest location in China. It's an expensive afternoon, sure, but rather cheap for a scam.

[roddy]

Show me a kindergarten teacher and a piano teacher in China that can spontaneously decide to spend several hundred yuan on an afternoon. Or that drink wine. Or that can't find Tiananmen Square from the south entrance of the Palace Museum. You could come up with a lot of maybes and what-ifs, but when it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, I'm afraid it's a duck.

 

Cheap for a scam maybe, but if you figure they took in 700. 150 for each of the girls, 400 for the 'tea house' owner. Two or three times a day. Three or four rooms in the tea house. Do the maths. Even if you figure outlay of 200 on wine and tea (and I bet they spend a lot less), people are making plenty of money. 

[Lu]

True enough, but on the other hand, what would it cost if it was a legit operation? Expensive tea, wine and dinner in a prime tourist destination in the city center can easily set you back a few hundred yuan. Feels more like a semi-legitimate place that sends out women onto the street to bring in guests than a full-on tea house scam.

 

And let's say the restaurant gets 400 x 4 x 3, that's 4800 yuan per day, of which he has to pay the rent, the waitstaff, the cooks and all supplies. I've never run a restaurant, but seems to me like the only people who may be profiting are the girls, and not even by that much.

 

Anyway, it's still a ripoff, and I'm sorry this gave the OP such a bad impression of China. I hope they had a good time otherwise.

[Silent]

 

Was that really a scam though? As I understand it, Jen001 paid 700 yuan for expensive tea, wine (which is always a bit expensive in China) and dinner, in a restaurant near Tian'anmen Square - not exactly the cheapest location in China. It's an expensive afternoon, sure, but rather cheap for a scam.

This is pretty much what I meant with my comments earlier in this thread based on my own experience. This one seems even a little bit closer to legit as the girls seemed to go less on an ordering spree though I don't know what exactly was ordered. The prices were high, but as I understand not that excessive for jen001 to walked out.

 

It may very well be true that the girls got a kick back in which case you might call it a scam due to the lack of transparency. It may also be that the girls let it go in the expectation that jen001 would pay but accepted the splitting of the bill as they felt awkward to refuse it. You never know what really is going on, it's always a bit of a guessing game. That the girls approached jen001 is a red flag, but not proof.

 

I suspect the girls got something out of it and that this is the correct way to 'play' it. A scam for a big amount is unsustainable, rip off a few people for a lot of money and you draw attention. Police and press get interested, the public will get warned and the police/politics may feel they have to do something. Rip of many people for smaller amounts and there's a chance people don't even notice they are ripped off and there's less chance to get unwanted attention. Such a scheme may go on for a long time till the greedy ones get in and draw attention spoiling it for all.