Taiwanese Mandarin to Chinese Mandarin

[skylee]

It means "得" and should be written as "得". What input method does your friend use? Does he use cangjie? Or stroke order? Or bopomofo?

The bopomofo (zhuyin fuhao) for "得" is "ㄉㄜ" (among others). The one for "的" is also "ㄉㄜ" (among others).

Some people do use "得" and "的" interchangeably. It does not seem to be a Taiwan thing.

[Rhubarb]

Actually the logic behind these 的s used in lieu of 得s shouldn't be that hard to get as it's the same logic as in : 真的.

So this usage shouldn't be looked down upon, especially by native Chinese speakers.

[Lu]

I suspect your friend has seen too many typing errors and has come to believe that 的 is also correct in this case (perhaps combined with what skylee says, the bopomofo is the same for 的 and 得). People misspell in every language, Chinese is no exception.

[muyongshi]

I suspect your friend has seen too many typing errors and has come to believe that 的 is also correct in this case (perhaps combined with what skylee says, the bopomofo is the same for 的 and 得). People misspell in every language, Chinese is no exception.

Agreed this is all about errors and what people mispell.

Actually the logic behind these 的s used in lieu of 得s shouldn't be that hard to get as it's the same logic as in : 真的.

So this usage shouldn't be looked down upon, especially by native Chinese speakers.

There is not really any logic behind this as 真 is not a verb and 得 is used after a verb. And it's not looked down upon it's just simply wrong.

[Rhubarb]

There is not really any logic behind this as 真 is not a verb and 得 is used after a verb. And it's not looked down upon it's just simply wrong.

There is a logic and it is looked down upon.

[muyongshi]

Rather than just state what you have stated before would you mind explaining the logic for us....

[Rhubarb]

What? You haven't asked your teacher yet? tsk tsk!

[fireball9261]

It's better to ask an educated native speaker but to me this is correct:

我跑得很快

and this is incorrect:

我跑的很快

IMHO, it's a typo, wherever you are.

In my experience, 我跑的很快 is correct, and 我跑得很快 is incorrect, because 得 has some other meaning and should be used differently and not in this particular sentence and in this way. Right now, my brain is mud after eating too well from my Xmas party with friends, so I couldn't give you a proper example. I will try to get back to this thread later.

I am a native Chinese speaker and have seen the usage of 的, 得, 地 changes from the early 1900 to now. Generally speaking, they are used interchangeably at one time or another. However, 的 and 地 are more like each other. 地 was used primarily in early 1900's. 得 is used in a more specific ways in the past. Nowadays, more mainland Chinese use 得 like 的 and 地 in the past. I am not sure whether the current modern mainland Chinese text books teach it this way, or just the usage changes due to one reason or another. Chinese language usage transforms from one period of time to another. For example: The term "afraid" was always "害怕" (hai4 pa4), but I have seen the term "後怕" (hou4 pa4 - afraid afterwards) used by the mainland Chinese more and more nowadays. I feel it is OK to use this term in some places (when the fear occurred after an incident), but not correct in many other incidences (like when one is afraid right then). However, who am I to stand in front of the changing language usage, especially there are a few billion mainland Chinese who are using it (even wrongly)?

[atitarev]

Wow, fireball9261.

I respect the fact that you're a native speaker but you're wrong in this instance. Other native speakers (Skylee, Muyongshi) have confirmed my point.

I know these rules about the correct usage of 的, 得 and 地 are not always followed even by native speakers but I prefer to do the write thing.

[Lu]

Fireball, I'm afraid you're mistaken, the three are often confused but in correct usage cannot be used interchangably. A lot of people, including native speakers, get it wrong all the time, but that still doesn't make it right. Here's a thread with explanations.

[muyongshi]

I respect the fact that you're a native speaker but you're wrong in this instance. Other native speakers (Skylee, Muyongshi) have confirmed my point.

Woooo! Hold your horse there buddy! Since when did I become a native speaker?????

[fireball9261]

From what my understanding, 得 is used with the meaning of "achievement" or "gaining". In the thread quoted by Lu, I agree with what xiaocai was saying. Therefore, any time if I want to achieve that kinds of effect, I would use 得 and not the other two words. When I am not emphasizing on the aspect of "achievement" or "gaining", I would use 的 or 地. That was the slight differences I have seen in the Chinese writings since early 1900's, with the early 1900 writers' emphases on 地, the 1950-1990 writers' emphases on 的, and the current (1990-2007) writers' emphases on 得. Now, whether those Chinese writers were right or wrong grammatically, I have no idea. Fortunately, I am not a Chinese grammar teacher.

[rezaf]

i think there is something with 的 and taiwan. another taiwanese once wrote to me ：高的很。or maybe it was 地， but i clearly remember it wasn‘t 得。

[skylee]

Perhaps these entries on "得" and "的" in the national language dictionary of the Ministry of Education of Taiwan could shed some light on rezaf's question (please note definition 2 of "得"). There is an example "跑得快" under definition 2 of "得", whereas there is nothing similar under the entries of "的".

(source)

1.　得　　部首　彳　部首外筆畫　8　總筆畫　11 注音一式　 ㄉㄜˊ

[動]

1. 獲、取。與「失」相對而言。如：「鷸蚌相爭，漁翁得利。」孟子˙告子上：「求則得之，舍則失之。」
   
2. 演算產生結果。如：「三三得九。」
   
3. 遇。如：「得便」、「得空即前往拜訪。」
   
4. 契合、適宜。如：「得體」、「得法」。漢˙王˙聖主得賢臣頌：「聚精會神，相得益章。」
   
5. 快意、滿足。史記˙卷六十二˙管晏傳：「意氣揚揚，甚自得也。」
   
6. 可以、能夠。如：「得過且過」、「不得抽菸！」、「得饒人處且饒人」、「所有員工均得摸彩。」
   
7. 用於談話終了之時，表反對、禁止或同意。如：「得了，別再出餿主意了！」、「得，我們就照你的方法去做。」

[副]

相當於「何」、「豈」、「那」、「怎」、「難道」等，表示反詰的語氣。唐˙杜甫˙後苦寒行二首之二：「巴東之峽生凌澌，彼蒼回軒人得知。」

[助]

置於動詞之後，無義。唐˙杜甫˙絕句漫興詩九首之二：「恰似春風相欺得，夜來吹折數枝花。」

2.　得　　部首　彳　部首外筆畫　8　總筆畫　11

注音一式　 ˙ㄉㄜ

[介]

用在動詞、形容詞後面，表示結果或性狀。如：「跑得快」、「覺得很好」、「美得冒泡」。

3.　得　　部首　彳　部首外筆畫　8　總筆畫　11

注音一式　 ㄉㄞˇ

[動]

遭受。如：「他作惡多端，得了報應也是應該的。」

4.　得　　部首　彳　部首外筆畫　8　總筆畫　11

注音一式　 ㄉㄟˇ

[副]

應該、必須、需要。如：「你總得讓我把話說完。」紅樓夢．第六十六回：「出了月就起身，得半個工夫纔回來。」

(source)

1.　的　　部首　白　部首外筆畫　3　總筆畫　8

注音一式　 ˙ㄉㄜ

[助]

1. 結構助詞：(1) 置於形容詞後。如：「美麗的風景」、「聰明的小孩」。(2) 置於名詞或代名詞後，表示所屬、所有的關係。如：「我的書」、「太陽的光」。(3)置於修飾片語或子句後。如：「他寄來的信，我昨天收到。」、「那賣花的人沒零錢找。」(4) 置於副詞後。同「地」。如：「慢慢的走」、「高高的飛」。
   
2. 句尾助詞：置於句尾，表示肯定或加強的語氣。如：「這樣做是不可以的！」、「你不是這樣講的！」

2.　的　　部首　白　部首外筆畫　3　總筆畫　8

注音一式　 ㄉ｜ˊ

[副]

確、真、實在。如：「的確」。宋˙賀鑄˙點絳脣˙一幅霜綃詞：「掩妝無語，的是銷凝處。」元˙白樸˙牆頭馬上˙第二折：「又不比秦樓夜讌金釵客，這的擔著利害。」

[形]

確實的、可靠的。如：「的保」、「的款」。

3.　的　　部首　白　部首外筆畫　3　總筆畫　8

注音一式　 ㄉ｜ˋ

[名]

箭靶的中心。如：「目的」、「標的」。荀子˙勸學：「是故質的張而弓矢至焉，林木茂而斧斤至焉。」漢˙王充˙論衡˙超奇：「論之應理，猶矢之中的。」

[atitarev]

Woooo! Hold your horse there buddy! Since when did I become a native speaker?????

Sorry, buddy. Wrong assumption.

[82riceballs]

Just couldn't resist commenting on the "sh" and "s" problem...

Here's my story: I have a friend from Taipei (who btw is 本省人) who pronounces all her "sh," "ch," and "zh" correctly. Does Chinese vary in Taiwan?

Anyways, I guess curling your tongue is only important sometimes like when distinguishing between "走失 (zou3 shi1)" meaning "to get lost" and "走私zou3 si1"meaning "smuggle". Haha... I've made that mistake before

[Quest]

Does Chinese vary in Taiwan?

Yes, there are different accents in Taiwan. However, none like the Beijing accent. Taiwan's zh ch sh are different.

[82riceballs]

So would a Taipei accent differ from a Taichung and Kaohsiung accent?

[fireball9261]

The Chinese accent do vary in Taiwan, but the standard Mandarin is standard Mandarin and should not be different from Beijing to Taipei. The actual practice, however, is not as idealistic as I said here. From what I understand, the Taiwanese in Taipei is somewhat different from Tainan and probably other places in Taiwan. My cousins in Taipei went to their grandparents' home in Tainan, and they had problems understanding Tainan's Taiwanese.

I am not sure whether those Taiwanese accents would affect Mandarin with such great differences that others could notice whether it is a Tainan person speaking Mandarin or a Taipei person speaking Mandarin. Taichung and Kaohsiung are comparable to Taipei and Tainan, so ...

I am not sure whether you guys mean Mandarin or just Taiwanese with regard about the accents? IMO, Taiwan people's zh, ch, sh are no different from Beijing people's zh, ch, sh in Mandarin. The people who pronounce differently are generally due to their own local accents coloring their Mandarin pronunciations.

[rezaf]

The Taiwanese pronunciation of zh,chi,shi is better than the Shanghainese pronunciation, but its not standard.