Can you recommend me a good self-taught program to follow?

[Patrick_ChineseForum]

Hi guys,

I just started learning Chinese about a week ago. So far I've studied pinyin and some simple words (as people here suggested). Now I think I should have a structured study program to guide me about what I should study/accomplish during the first month, second month, and so on. I did the search on this forum and the closest result was "Self-teaching vs. Classes - The Great Debate" thread. After reading the thread, I enrolled in the Chinese language for beginner class in a community college. The class will start in a few weeks. It'll only take place once a week. Honestly I would like to spend more than a day a week studying Chinese (I think I can do about an hour a day self study). Many people here suggested many good study resources. However I didn't know in what order should I study them. I did some googling and found some self study programs. However they seemed to be commercially driven (for profit per say). Hence I was not sure if I could trust their claims. I would like to hear from people here. What self study programs have you used? Which one worked best for you?

My goal is to be able handle simple conversation and read Chinese websites. Don't know how long that will take, but I believe a good start is to have the road map (study program) to follow. Please advice.

Thank you,

Patrick

[jkhsu]

I started learning from a community college as well so I've been there. You're going to get various responses from people here so you'll have to figure out what works best for you. I'm a big fan of textbooks and I've used them as my "core" base of study materials. The textbook series I recommend are:

New Practical Chinese Reader Series

http://www.amazon.com/New-Practical-Chinese-Reader-Textbook/dp/7561910401

Integrated Chinese Series

http://www.cheng-tsui.com/store/products/integrated_chinese

The Princeton Language Program: Modern Chinese Series

http://press.princeton.edu/catalogs/series/plpmc.html

Don't skimp when it comes to buying textbooks. If possible, I carry them around wherever I go. I also use multiple textbook series because one series never covers sufficient vocab and reading for that level.

There are quite a few free online resources as well. Here are some that come to mind.

University of Iowa Lessons:

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/35171-university-of-iowa-collection-of-900-lessons/

MIT Open CourseWare

http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/foreign-languages-and-literatures/21f-101-chinese-i-regular-spring-2006/

CCTV Learn Chinese

http://english.cntv.cn/learnchinese/

Slow Chinese

http://www.slow-chinese.com/

I tend to use online resources as a supplement to my core textbook study but I don't see anything wrong with using them as your core study material. Also, some for-profit sites such as Chinesepod, etc. allow you to download lessons within a certain amount of time after you register. You can download some lessons and use them later as an option.

By the way, your goal of simple conversation will be much easier to reach than being able to read Chinese websites (with ease). By the time you can do the latter, you can probably read a Chinese newspaper. In terms of time, I've always based my learning on how long it takes a typical college student to finish a degree in Chinese language or approximately 4 years. That doesn't mean you will be fluent by then but at least it's a timeline you can measure against. The great thing about textbooks is that they are usually tailored for that (college) system. The other thing you should do is go to various university websites and read about how they structure their Chinese language programs. Many of them will list the textbooks they use as well.

[paotale]

Agree with the advice above, have a bit more for you.

Whatever you do, try to incorporate writing (hand writing) into your regimen. Writing out the characters has at least 2 benefits. 1) It will help you to recognize patterns within the characters. 2) Perhaps more importantly it will help you to organize your thoughts. This is especially helpful if you don't have many opportunities to speak the language. Also, when you do have the chance you will be better at it.

What I did (1st and 3rd year levels were on my own) was try to keep a journal and wrote in it every 2-4 days. At first, the journal will be more boring than than both Chiefs-Broncos games this year but will really help. To do this you will definitely need to look up vocabulary and how to write some characters but you will be glad you put in the work.

As for reading, you won't be able to read much at first, but what is important is learning to recognize important characters. After you've studied for a little while, Find something, (really,anything--I used a free women's hospital magazine/tabloid-am a man), that is for native speakers and then start looking at it. If you recognize the character, try to write the pinyin (with or without tone) above the word.You'll be surprised at how you will start to recognize the characters. If there is a character you see often but don't know, look it up, write it out a few times and you should be able to remember it.

If you are looking for somewhere to get started as far as character recognition, I highly recommend the website below, it lists the characters in order of frequency: http://www.zein.se/p...k/3000char.html

Final thought is on pronounciation. Definitely need to learn the tones and understand the differences between them. BUT...There is absolutely no reason to beat it into the ground. I recommend that you read the word or character out loud a time or two, but seriously don't sacrifice too much time in order to pronounce everything perfectly. Why? 1) You will sound quite annoying if you emphasize every single word you say. 2) More importantly, suppose you focused more on having a larger vocabulary of words you can only partially pronounce. First, you will be able to talk with Chinese speakers about a more broad range of topics, and if you hear them say something you will naturally adapt and your own speech will become more standard/normal.

Let me know if you have any questions, I'll post again if I think of anything else.

[renzhe]

Final thought is on pronounciation. Definitely need to learn the tones and understand the differences between them. BUT...There is absolutely no reason to beat it into the ground.

I'd like to politely disagree.

There is every reason to beat it into the ground in the beginning. It also helps to exaggerate tones in the beginning, because many people (me, for example) find that they don't pronounce tones fully if they don't concentrate.

I am not saying that you should only do pronunciation for 3 months, but it helps to devote a lot of time to it in the beginning, before you form bad habits, and it is very important to have a native listen and correct if possible.

[Patrick_ChineseForum]

@jkhsu. Thank you for many links and great advice. I love podcast and always have something to listen (English) every single day. Many people on this site give thumbs up to Chinesepod. I tried the free version one time and it was too advance for me. Maybe I need to learn Chinese for a year or two before listening to Chinesepod... Thanks for forewarning me about what to expect (reading Chinese). I thought only newspaper used advanced words. Do other normal Chinese websites also use advanced words? I remember when I was studying English many years ago, reading newspaper was harder than reading computer text books/websites. My thought was that normal people don't bother to use advanced English words compared to the professional journalists. I thought Chinese would be similar. No?

@paotale. Thank you for your advice about writing while learning words. I actually do just that! For me, I can remember words better if I could write. I'm also attracted to Chinese characters. They are aesthetically pleasing to write (especially the traditional characters)... You said "if you recognize the character, write it in Pinyin". I'm very terrible at this. This may sound weird. A lot of time I can remember how to pronounce the words correctly but always write it in Pinyin wrong. X-( Yes I agree with you that I need to accumulate my vocab before I could read even simple phrases. I'm working on it using Anki and smartphone games. So far I've progressed slowly.

@renzhe. Thank you for stressing the importance of tone pronunciation. I think I'm doing pretty good because (1) my based language also has tones. So I could emulate most Chinese tones easily (2) I've watched thousands of Chinese movie growing up (dub in my first language of course) and indirectly learned many Chinese names which had tones in them. However I just recently realized that listening was very difficult. I found it very challenging to understand simple sentences from Anki decks (while learning words). Honestly this really worried me. When I was learning English, listening was the skill that I mastered last. :-( I wonder if it would be the same for Chinese...

[rezaf]

my based language also has tones. So I could emulate most Chinese tones easily

I'm sure because of your background you have a great advantage over normal Thai speakers but still be careful about the pronunciation. The articles that I sent in the other thread as well as my own experience at school show me that the similarities between these tonal languages actually adds to the difficulty of learning the standard Mandarin pronunciation. I don't know how it should be solved because the 偏误 that those articles have mentioned is a completely different problem comparing to the problems that the students from Indo-European languages face in learning Mandarin pronunciation. I guess you should listen more carefully and try to separate it from what you know in your mother-tongue.

[Patrick_ChineseForum]

Hi Rezef,

Thanks for reminding me to be careful about some pronunciations. In fact, I still have a hard time distinguishing between the initial z and zh sound. When I listen to both of them back to back, I think the z sound is very very (yeah double "very") tiny bit softer than zh sound. I maybe able to tell them apart when playing them from the Pinyin Flash program. However I couldn't tell them apart when they are used in words or sentences. Do native really pronounce them differently? They sound so close (in Pinyin Flash program).

[renzhe]

Where did you hear this?

I recommend that you switch to a more standard pronunciation in the beginning. ChinesePod and NCPR materials are both very good when it comes to this.

[jkhsu]

Thanks for forewarning me about what to expect (reading Chinese). I thought only newspaper used advanced words. Do other normal Chinese websites also use advanced words? I remember when I was studying English many years ago, reading newspaper was harder than reading computer text books/websites. My thought was that normal people don't bother to use advanced English words compared to the professional journalists. I thought Chinese would be similar. No?

I took a huge chunk of your quote because I feel a lot of people believe this when they first start learning Chinese. When I started, I thought after my first semester, I should be able to read the Chinese menu at a restaurant. It turns out that even to this day, I am pretty lost when it comes to menus and the only reason I can even figure it out is because I've been there enough times and heard others order the same food. The same thing goes for websites that are aimed for native Chinese. They might be slightly easier than a news site but not by much. Basically,you're not suddenly going to be able to easily breeze through non-news Chinese language sites but not be able to comprehend news sites. That's been my experience. Perhaps others can comment as well.

[Patrick_ChineseForum]

@Renzhu: "Where did you hear this" you asked. Here's the link http://chinesepod.co.../pronunciation. Someone in this forum sent me that link. I think it's pretty good... Chinesepod looks like a good site but my level is so low. I don't understand any podcast that they provide :-( I guess I need to build up my vocab first.

@jkhsu: Wow even after years of studying, it's still difficult to order food from Chinese menu. That's really encouraging (sarcasm). Do Chinese invent new words for everything or what? How do you motivate yourself if the learning progress of this language is at snail pace like this? Take HSK exams to validate your Chinese knowledge? Since I've heard people said that Chinese grammar is simple, then what make reading Chinese difficult must be because of wide range of vocab. Am I right? Maybe the Chinese do invent words for everything. For example, in Thai language (my first language) we call "America" a-me-li-ca (Thai has no R sound). In Japanese, they call it a-me-ri-ka (I used to study Japanese). The Chinese call it Mei Guo. They basically invent a new word for America. It almost seems like they purposely make their language complicate... weird (sorry for venting)

[yellowpower]

tons of great advice and suggestions!

Remember to practice, practice, practice and use the language whenever you can with friends, at outings, etc. Studying is one part, the other is to use the language which is equally important.

[renzhe]

@Renzhu: "Where did you hear this" you asked. Here's the link http://chinesepod.co.../pronunciation.

The difference between e.g. "zao" and "zhao" in the link is obvious.

It is possible that you will have to train your ear if you cannot hear the difference. And look at the diagrams they provide about how the sounds are voiced.

Since I've heard people said that Chinese grammar is simple

Chinese grammar is not simple. It is comparable to the average European language.

The Chinese call it Mei Guo.

Mei is from a-ME-rica, Guo means country.

Fa Guo = FRA-nce + Guo

De Guo = DE-utschland + Guo

Ying Guo = ENG-land + Guo

[Patrick_ChineseForum]

Renzhe,

You probably have better ears than me. I just listen to "zao" and "zhao" again and they are slightly different (not obviously different) to me.

Thanks for showing me samples of how Chinese call other countries. So they try to match the foreign sound with limited flirting Chinese words. Very interesting. I thought Japanese language was bad (at emulating foreign sound). Boy Chinese is even worse. Thanks for educating me. :-)

[jbradfor]

Very interesting. I thought Japanese language was bad (at emulating foreign sound). Boy Chinese is even worse.

Well, yes and no. In most cases of foreign sounds, Chinese tends to use one character per syllable (more or less....), which makes it closer. If you're curious, just go to a dictionary and enter a random famous person or city or country. The limited sounds (morphemes?) in Mandarin make some of them not very close, but it's closer than the above examples would suggest.

There are a handful of countries, however, that Chinese does not do this, and instead picks one character that sounds close to the name, plus 国. In addition to the ones renzhe mention, Korea and Thailand come to mind. Japan is a bit of an exception as well.

I thought after my first semester, I should be able to read the Chinese menu at a restaurant. It turns out that even to this day, I am pretty lost when it comes to menus and the only reason I can even figure it out is because I've been there enough times and heard others order the same food.

I'm surprised that you're surprised. Unless you've explicitly studied food words, I don't see why you would think you could read a menu. In fact, personally, I find Chinese menus easier than most as most food names are very descriptive of their ingredients and their method of preparation.

[wedge]

I found Pimsleur to be very helpful when I was first starting out. It doesn't teach pinyin at all, but I thought that was actually an advantage, as you avoid the phenomenon of pronouncing pinyin as you would English (or whatever alphabet-based language you are most familiar with).

In response to Rezaf's point about native speakers of other tonal languages learning Mandarin -- I had a Thai classmate (sample set of 1) who learned to speak Mandarin quite well. He said that, not only is Thai also a tonal language, but the tones are quite similar to Mandarin tones. He still had a particular accent, but he did not at all have the "tone deafness" problem that many western learners have.

[rezaf]

He said that, not only is Thai also a tonal language, but the tones are quite similar to Mandarin tones.

That's exactly why it's difficult for them to learn the correct pronunciation. Because of the similarities they usually develop a relatively good speaking skill probably a little bit faster than western learners but with a heavy accent that they can't get rid of easily. It's difficult to say which one is more difficult because the nature of the problems that the people coming from Indo-European languages have is very different. I have had many Asian(Thai, Vietnamese, ...) classmates but very few western classmates, therefore I admit that I can’t compare them with confidence but as far as I have seen it was much easier for my western classmates to sound close to standard Mandarin(or maybe I just happened to have talented western classmates). However the articles that I posted here: http://www.chinese-f...chinese-people/ also mention a lot of common mispronunciations of the Thai students.

[jkhsu]

I'm surprised that you're surprised. Unless you've explicitly studied food words, I don't see why you would think you could read a menu.

Well, one of my first textbooks had a chapter on Chinese menus. I thought that if I just remembered the words, I'd be able to read the menu. That assumption turned out to be wrong. I could usually figure out whether it's a meat or vegetable dish and sometimes the type of meat, but there were always other characters I didn't know. So yeah, you have to explicitly study menus and eat at different types of Chinese restaurants to understand menus. Also, the menus in China are totally different from those in the USA. I had to look at pictures. They also varied from place to place. Dishes like 腌笃鲜 are hard to figure out unless you've tried it or saw a picture. I am sure there are other examples.

[paotale]

@jkhsu: I was basking of the glory of ordering off an all chinese menu for the first time. Having recognized the character 鸡 (and no others) on the menu I was eagerly awaiting a nice chicken dish. Turned out to be 西红柿炒鸡蛋。I hate tomatoes.

But I do agree that reading menus is a good way to start for two reasons. First, menus tend to have a lot of repeat characters, so you will be able to beat those into the ground. Second, some dishes have names that don't really describe what they are, 老虎菜 comes to mind. I think that this helps make some connections within our brains that may not be as well matched by other methods. Just my theory though.

[peterlkj]

Haha - I survived on 番茄炒蛋 for weeks on my first trip out of the big cities.

Before I learnt Chinese, I never used to understand why Chinese people would have such long discussions with the waiter and didn't just choose from the menu. In retrospect, it makes a lot of sense - the typical cryptic 4 to 6 characters give you some idea of key ingredients and style, but unless you actually talk to the waiters from that restaurant, you'll have no idea what exactly is coming. Great opportunity for conversation practice though!

[Patrick_ChineseForum]

Nice info about Chinese menu! I can't wait to study Chinese for a year then go to China to see how many characters I can recognize from the menu. :-) Thanks for sharing info guys.