BOTM November 2007，《雷雨》

[muyongshi]

Shouldn't tell me that....I might just have to quit

Why is it that all "great works" (or just even most authors) seem to be so 悲观 and love writing these 悲剧?

[studentyoung]

Shouldn't tell me that....I might just have to quit

Why is it that all "great works" (or just even most authors) seem to be so 悲观 and love writing these 悲剧?

I understand how you feel, however, I here have one word for you in “Commemorating Miss Liu Hezhen” by Luxun (鲁迅《记念刘和珍君》) as below.

真的猛士,敢于直面惨淡的人生,敢于正视淋漓的鲜血。

A true brave man dare face up to blue aspects and bloody scenes in life.

Hope you can feel better now! And cheer up, muyongshi!

Cheers!

[imron]

Anyone else still reading this? There's still a week left :） I've just finished reading it now.

[muyongshi]

I WILL FINISH...Now that Thanksgiving is over! I'm about a week behind but I should finish in a week....

[rob07]

I wouldn't call this a "great work". I think it relies too much on cheap tricks for effect, what with all the incest, death and madness. Still, it was fun I guess.

My favourite character was 鲁贵, he felt the most real. Such a scumbag! 周繁漪 had a very passive negative presence, which I thought worked well. Gong Li seemed to take over the movie a bit too much.

Imron, what did you think?

[imron]

I think it relies too much on cheap tricks for effect, what with all the incest, death and madness.

Yes, some of the story definitely felt like it was straight out of a bad TV soap opera, except that it predates TV soaps by a few decades.

I wouldn't call this a "great work".

It's considered to be one of the better plays written during that period, and to be fair, I think that as a play it loses something when you read it as opposed to seeing it acted out.

Overall I quite liked it though, despite the fact that it's a tragedy.

I think I agree with you about favourite character, although I also liked 冲. The other characters just didn't seem to have anything going for them that made you care too much about them. With 鲁贵, being such a good-for-nothing at least made you despise him.

[rob07]

Yes, I liked 周冲 too. He and to a lesser extent 四凤 were innocents. They had no way of knowing that events that happened long before they were born meant that they inevitably were going to end up screwed. This makes the play classic tragedy in the Greek tradition and gives it most of its narrative force.

This was what I was getting at when I said that 周繁漪 had a very passive negative presence, which I thought worked well, and that Gong Li seemed to take over the movie a bit too much. Yes, things haven't worked out that well for you since your step-son decided he didn't want to sleep with you any more, but why should I care? From a narrative point of view, the evil deeds of the past are scarier if they are left half veiled in shadow, and the focus is on how they continue to blight the lives of future generations, rather than on how people who wrecked their lives years ago continue to have wrecked lives.

I think one of the most interesting things about the play is that, as I understand it, it is one of the first recognised Chinese literary works to show strong signs of Western influence. I understand that 曹禺 was heavily influenced by Henrik Ibsen, and I think it is fair to say that 雷雨's roots are ancient Greek. I don't know much about Ibsen, but I think you can see his influence in some of the other major writers of the period, particularly伤逝 by 魯迅.

[muyongshi]

I can see that it has qualities to it and by the end was getting into it despite how painful it was. The long dialogs are a bit hard to read rather than to see acted out and some of them were just down right painful as characters like 鲁贵 and 周繁漪 rambled on. Kind of felt that the father was a bit underdeveloped but I also felt like he was one of the more "real" characters as well. Just living his life, hurts and all, and just hoping to kind of get old and die. You can tell he loved his family and was concerned for all of them. 鲁贵 was also really real but you can't like him for it. I think 周冲 and 四凤 were the embodiment of the entirety of the tragedy. 周冲 with all the weight of the "sin" on his shoulders countered by 四凤 who was the pure and innocent. Very interesting read.

[chenpv]

周冲 with all the weight of the "sin" on his shoulders countered by 四凤 who was the pure and innocent.

Out of curiosity, what was Zhou Chong's sin and why do you think Sifeng was pure and innocent?

[muyongshi]

No I'm not saying that he was guilty and she was innocent what I'm saying is that their characters took on those roles. Meaning that he was weighed down heavy by depression and a type of guilt and it represented all the mistakes of the entire family being piled onto him. And well si feng was the opposite. She made him feel like there was something to live for and she was always portrayed with kind of this feel of a young, lively girl.

[Jenny311]

Glad to find the discussion! Hope I'm not too late to join!

As for " it relies too much on cheap tricks for effect, what with all the incest, death and madness. " -- Considering it is a play on stage, not TV or film which can use all kinds of technical means, these tricks are necessary for showing a meaningful story in a couple of hours.

"except that it predates TV soaps by a few decades." -- Yes, there's a saying that "the first one trying to do somthing creatively is brave, others following him are just normal". I have had the same feeling when reading some old literature works, I felt "they are quiet ordinary, how can they become famous great works?!" But considering the time they were born, maybe they're not that ordinary.

Actually, the father 周朴园 is the lead of this play. Any one is interested in talking more about him?

If we google with key words like " 雷雨 人物分析”or“雷雨人物形象”, will get more info about it.

[muyongshi]

Well actually I still don't like the story in that sense whether it's "original" or not....

I found the father to be the saddest character of all. And in many senses the most real. He seemed to be one who was getting through life, had some mistakes, but never went to an extreme, but simply just pushed ahead, trying to lead a normal life. But what made him the saddest was that everything around him just kept falling to pieces and he was effected the most by all the same things.

[Jenny311]

BTW, the movie based on this play is titled "Curse of the Golden Flower", instead of "banquet", which is another movie.

[muyongshi]

Your saying that curse of the golden flower is based on THIS play?????? Wow...never would have guessed...they sure upped the anty on the setting.

[Jenny311]

http://gjgx.com/jiaocan/cyuwen/cyuwen3/200607/2572.html

A link to analysis of 雷雨's characters.

If anyone wonder whether this play is a meaningful work or a boring story, then perhaps the link might be helpful for finding an answer.

[skylee]

"The Banquet" 《夜宴》 was inspired by Shakespeare's "Hamlet".

[Jenny311]

"Your saying that curse of the golden flower is based on THIS play?????? "

-- YES. I'm sure. The movie is based on this play, but made some changes.

If you google both 满城尽带黄金甲 and 雷雨, will find the fact.

[imron]

BTW, the movie based on this play is titled "Curse of the Golden Flower", instead of "banquet", which is another movie.

D'oh, I knew it was one of them, and just got them mixed up (I've not seen either of the movies myself)

[muyongshi]

I haven't seen either of them either (heard too many bad things about the the curse) and now that I know I will most definitely NOT watch it.

[Jenny311]

Back to 雷雨，if anyone is still interested in ,( I myself am familiar with 雷雨，not 球状闪电. Please forgive me sticking here:）

To make it interesting, I make up some questions here:

1. What does the scene of "taking medicine" mean?

The father forced his wife to take medicine which she was not willing to have. What kind of personality of both characters were shown from this scene?

2. (to be continue, if people are still interested in.