Taiwanese names and romanisation

[encal]

* i mean, i'm NOT arguing it's not a broken system

[wix]

It is my understanding that the new policy is that cities and counties will retain their traditional spelling. All other places names should use Hanyu Pinyin. So we still have Hsinchu, Kaohsiung, Taichung and Chiayi. All other smaller towns, street names and so on should be in Hanyu Pinyin.

Of course it is unlikely to be consistently implemented. Even the city and county governments that do adopt Hanyu Pinyin will still likely make numerous mistakes in using it. Expect a continuing mess.

[Lu]

Changing even the signs of streets and maps would feel like a... power trip? That's not the right word. It'd be similar to changing Bombay to Mumbai 50 years after the British left India, or taking off "中正" to the name of parks and airports by the previous Taiwanese government.

The last example is not in the right context, but still, aside from inconveniencing those who studied and knows the standard Pin-yin Romanisation front to back, why change the names of locations, some of which carry hints of Taiwan Minnanese.

I think you mean: those names have been spelled like that for so long, it's more convenient to keep it this way?

But in many cases, it hasn't been any particular way for any period of time. I've been told that not so long ago, you'd walk down, say, 中正路 and have the signs you see change from Jhongjheng to Chungcheng to Zhungchen or whatever the official in charge had come up with. If there was any spelling that had been in use for that street for a long time, so that everybody concerned knew that that's how it's spelled, one could make a case for keeping it that way. But usually, there isn't.

Hints of Minnanese only serve to confuse even more, assuming you talk about confusing -n and -ng, z- and zh-, etc.

Many old place names are in Wade-Giles, which is indeed not wrong, just a different system. Unfortunately it's usually misused, resulting in crippled W-G (Taipei and Kuting are good examples), which is wrong.

But why I think Taipei, Keelung, Chiayi and others should also be spelled in pinyin is: it sets an example. Learning that 北 is spelled bei makes sense, learning that it's always spelled bei and then seeing the name Taipei is confusing, as is learning it's always spelled bei except in case of Taipei. Especially because there will be a host of rules like this, and the less rule-savvy schoolchildren will end up spelling their hometowns as Daipei or Gaohsiung, or live in 泰北 and wonder how to spell that.

[encal]

What i mean is, a switch now for street names will seem to be just what you've described, just another switch the official at the time feels like doing.

Again i'm not making the argument that pinyin is the standard that should be adopted to save confusion, especially in names of persons and in schooling. But, i still don't see why changing Taipei to Taibei matters beyond making a novice to Mandarin Chinese feel slightly more comforted.

School children 7 and under will spell "the" without the "h" or with a "d" instead of "th" no matter what system they are taught, but they, and older students alike (especially the older and foreign ones) will get a kick out of learning about the Wade-Giles system and Minnanese-accented Mandarin sneaking into the spelling during the early days of Romanising Mandarin, all the while, learning pinyin and having the same Romanised last name on their visa as their father.

Out of curiosity though, and i really don't know ( i admit to googling up Wade-Giles while reading up on this thread ). Why is, if it is, Hong Kong kept as Hong Kong and not Xiang Gang?

[Lu]

Because Hong Kong is Cantonese romanized, not Mandarin.

they, and older students alike (especially the older and foreign ones) will get a kick out of learning about the Wade-Giles system and Minnanese-accented Mandarin sneaking into the spelling during the early days of Romanising Mandarin, all the while, learning pinyin and having the same Romanised last name on their visa as their father.

They will? Are there actually larger groups of Taiwanese people who really know at least one romanisation system? I sure haven't met them. I did know a well-educated guy surnamed Hsu who insisted that his name was not in W-G but in some unnamed Taiwanese system, and an equally well-educated woman who had grown up abroad, did know zhuyin but never knew pinyin or any other romanisation system (she spelled 顾问 as goo-wen). There are probably a few Taiwanese who really know at least one system, but they definitely don't learn it in school.

[atitarev]

Forumosans are very happy about the Pinyin introduction in Taiwan:

http://forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=73028 (16 pages discussion)

[ABCinChina]

^ Those are all ABC's who came from Taiwan. So they probably learned pinyin overseas so that's why they are so happy. I think most Taiwanese don't really care because they can't read any of it anyway.

[atitarev]

Even if they can't, they do care and they resist, just in case, because it's from the mainland.

Here's one of the interviews:

INTERVIEW: Tongyong better suited to Taiwan???

I heard this several times:

The Hanyu Pinyin system is not entirely suitable for Taiwan given the fact that not every Chinese character is pronounced in Taiwan as it is in China.

IMHO, the argument is weak, since Wade-Giles, Tonyong-Pinyin can be converted one to one to Hanyu Pinyin, it's still possible to write in HP the variations - Putonghua vs Taiwan-Guoyu. Perhaps, this part should be explained by someone who knows it better.

They continue to write in a mix of romanisation (even in the above article) and criticise hanyu pinyin, it makes me laugh - what's this? A new version of Wade-Giles?: Yu Bor-chuan (余伯泉) (Yu Boquan)

[ABCinChina]

Retaining Zhuyin Fuhao was a relic of the old KMT era under the principle that “gentlemen don’t stand with thieves.” Bopomofo was replaced with pinyin in China in 1949, so the KMT’s mindset has been that it must defend Zhuyin Fuhao and reject Hanyu Pinyin.

And there you have it in a nutshell what he thinks. He doesn't care for simplicity of use, he only cares about his own Taiwanese mindset and sense of pride. I bother not to read the rest of what he said...

[atitarev]

There was a response, actually. Only the first small section is related.

Tongyong’s fantasy world

[roddy]

^ Those are all ABC's who came from Taiwan. So they probably learned pinyin overseas so that's why they are so happy.

Or alternatively, they're a diverse bunch of people with various connections to Taiwan, some of whom are also regular posters on here, who think this is a good idea.

[Lu]

^ Those are all ABC's who came from Taiwan. So they probably learned pinyin overseas so that's why they are so happy. I think most Taiwanese don't really care because they can't read any of it anyway.

Every time I looked forumosa was mostly filled with white foreigners in Taiwan for some time, who often don't know Chinese and come to the forums to rant. Very few ABC's or ABT's there, let alone locals. There are exceptions, like the people who do learn (sometimes really good) Chinese and care about language, and it's those people and the people who can't read Chinese who are really happy about Taiwan implementing Hanyu pinyin.

[atitarev]

League protests Ma’s decision to replace Tongyong

Here's why Ma Yingjiu likes Hanyu Pinyin:

Ma’s administration favors Hanyu Pinyin — invented in China — over Tongyong Pinyin because it belittles Taiwanese, Yu said.

: 中國 belittles 臺灣

Does anybody believe it?

[Lu]

Sigh. One'd almost think that the blues pay the greens to make themselves look ridiculous.

'Invented in China', unlike, say, the characters they normally write with? Or, for that matter, bopomofo? The newspaper I worked for consistently called Chunjiu the Spring Festival, never Chinese New Year. There are probably already people in Taiwan who insist on calling their script 'Taiwanese characters'.

[atitarev]

Ditto: the scary part is abundance of X's in hanyu pinyin it must be really hard to digest:

Just think about it, they (Chinese) romanise 向 as "Xiang"!

...using China’s system rather than Taiwan’s Tongyong spelling system was tantamount to siding with China.

These are city councilors on the picture, not school teachers. Showing how their names would be spelled in HP.

[atitarev]

This is quite funny. Please read if interested in updates for hanyu pinyin in Taiwan:

Taiwan train stations and the switch to Hanyu Pinyin

[atitarev]

More development:

We want Taiwanese Tongyong Pinyin... We refuse to adopt the romanization system used by China

“The Tongyong Pinyin system is widely used for the romanization of ‘Taisi’ (台西) Town in Yunlin County (雲林). Why should it be spelled ‘Taixi’ instead?” Chuang said in the bus station.

DPP Legislator Liu Chien-kuo (劉建國) later climbed a ladder and covered the “Taixi” on the destination board above the bus gate with a card reading “Taisi.”

Protesters support Tongyong

[Lu]

If the legislator is such a fan of Tongyong, why doesn't he spell his own name in it?

[chrix]

Because once it's legally fixed (in your passport) it's a hassle to change, also sometimes because it's family tradition (or disrepect towards your elders who gave you that name and the corresponding romanisation). Ask President Ma Ying-jeou the big proponent of hanyu pinyin that he is why he doesn't change the spelling of his name...

[Lu]

In Taiwan, you can legally change your given name once, for little or no money. You can also change the spelling once, for little or no money. The thing is, you rarely if ever find a Taiwanese official who cares enough about any spelling system to show this kind of consistency. Ma Ying-jeou is a good example, his vice-president a better/worse one (Siew? Really? How on earth did he come up with that, I'm really curious). This legislator would have a much better point if he were consistent.

Or that's at least what I think. Obviously, Taiwan disagrees.