39degN Posted June 6, 2004 at 05:31 PM Report Share Posted June 6, 2004 at 05:31 PM i say 'these are the things u can do', they say 'it's not suitable' or 'technically impossible'. i say 'invest in education', they tell me '中国国情'. i say 'freedom of speech', they say 'we dont need western kind of freedom'. i say 'learn this from japan', they say 'we dont learn from animals'. i say 'learn this from america', they say 'we dont want to have guns all over the streets' i say 'learn from ...erm... ok, singapore, a chinese majority society', they say 'that tiny country has no resemblence to what china is facing'. ok, then 'learn from taiwan', ur own people, they say '台巴子'. i say 'learn from the rest of the world', they say i'm '数典忘祖，崇洋媚外'. i say 'china is facing such problems', they say i'm '妖魔化中国', '汉奸'. 'go back to ur american daddy'. make sure your opinions are deliverd to right ppl, for example you suggest that we should change the education system, how can we common ppl make this possible? u should write down your suggestions in a formal format and sent it to education ministry, if they dont accept it and without reasonable explanations, they are bastards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holyman Posted June 6, 2004 at 06:27 PM Report Share Posted June 6, 2004 at 06:27 PM good heavens, if chinese themselves cant deliver the message, do u think a foreigner can? the first question they ask me, are u a chinese citizen? gone. its not that i've never encounter such things. take education for example, we have dealt with more officials than u can imagine. when we try to help build schools in rural areas, what is the reaction from the local govt/education dept? some typical incidents... some will try to nod their head and say yes to everything we suggest. after the money was transferred, things remain the same. some will try to act tough: u are only here to help, how we do things u have no right to criticise or comment. bereaucracy in action again. some see us as their money god, they take the money, they used it to fill up the deficit in their financial accounts, school was never built. in the end we had great troubles taking back the money. some will put up a good show when we visit(that's why we always prefer sudden, unofficial visits. my friend was killed during such visits). cant really blame them thou... its hard for them to judge how much to reveal. if they really let us see the dark side, and we put it down in reports and give priority for fundings, their bosses will get superheat from the central govt. if they hide too much and put up too good a show, they cant get the funds, which they actually needed. u know in some places teachers havent recieve their pay for months, this funding is like life jacket to them. the best part is when we do double check at certain places like, a yr later. the books we donated, equipments we gave, were all brand new, locked up in cabinets and collecting dust. they only put them out on display when people above come to check, to show that they 'have such things'. the kids never had the chance to make use of them. we rather the donated items be frequently used, even if the books crumbled like kimchi is alright. but they simply take this as a facelift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
39degN Posted June 6, 2004 at 06:44 PM Report Share Posted June 6, 2004 at 06:44 PM oh, i m sorry to hear that man. how about impeaching these to higher or the highest department? sometimes foreigner's opinions are more "important" than chinese to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holyman Posted June 6, 2004 at 07:03 PM Report Share Posted June 6, 2004 at 07:03 PM u cant. u probably dunno how bereaucracy works. they'll send ppl of 'equal status' to take care of u, esp foreigners. u cant get to the higher level, cos they simply wont see u. for locals its probably the same, or worst. 越级上访? 告御状? prepare to die on the way. u dont need a foreigner to remind u about this. think about it, its ur own education, but even when the foreigners followed up this much to help and monitor, those things i've mentioned above can actually happen. what else can i say except complaining? why people dont mention about 希望工程 nowadays? where did all the funds go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holyman Posted June 7, 2004 at 01:29 AM Report Share Posted June 7, 2004 at 01:29 AM What you have done just like to ask a killer's neighbor why the killer has killed people, should his neighbor be responsible for that? The killer is an adult individual, he can be responsible for his own actions, none of his neighbor's business, how can common people understand a murderer's mind? You should have asked the murderer himself, otherwise, you actually are assuming everyone is the murderer. '良善者的不作为是恶势力猖獗的温床'。 the 'everyone' might no be murderers, but definitely 'indirect accomplices'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
39degN Posted June 7, 2004 at 03:53 AM Report Share Posted June 7, 2004 at 03:53 AM speechless! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holyman Posted June 7, 2004 at 05:54 AM Report Share Posted June 7, 2004 at 05:54 AM just try to do something for ur own country. if foreigners are willing to help, i dont see why chinese cant do it themselves. some chinese like to criticise that the foreigners knows only how to talk and point fingers. the fact is that we have been to the most remote place most of them can never imagine, just to help out their countrymen. '与牛马同栏' is the discription for slaves in ancient china. but what the volunteers had experienced is something like that. funds from unesco are insufficient to support surveys, so a lot of volunteers have to come out with their own money. they get the 'standing tickets' in trains, with all the farmers and chickens and ducks around them. when 城市人 cant take it for 10mins, they bear with the smell, the sweat, the dirt and the heat for tens of hours. they go to the most remote places most chinese never ever heard of, the poorest place most chinese could never imagine, and some lost their lives or got attacked. my friend was killed cos the local guide thought she's rich. it turned out she had only got a few hundred rmb with her, for the ticket back to beijing and a few simple meals. its really hard for us to emphasize our cause or show condolences or justify her death when her parents came to beijing to collect her remains. their daughter was killed by the people she wanted to help... what else can we say to them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quest Posted June 7, 2004 at 07:15 AM Report Share Posted June 7, 2004 at 07:15 AM $$ + education every country walked the same path, it takes time. Sometimes there's very little that can be done. Better focus on educating the young than complaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunyata Posted June 7, 2004 at 12:33 PM Report Share Posted June 7, 2004 at 12:33 PM Good to know you are trying to help, but of course it can never be easy in a foreign country. There are always risks involved and your friend's death is a testimony to that. However, as far as new records for dishonest actions, what makes you think that China is the leader? Name any other country, and you can probably find much worse things in their past and present. America is not an exception to this, neither is Europe. It's just that these problems are covered up much more thoroughly, whereas in China it's hard to cover up the living conditions of 1.3 billion people, which is what makes it possible for foreigners to go into remote places and see the way things really are. Of course China is currently facing more social problems than say the US or Europe. Poverty exists everywhere, but certain instances in China are quite extreme, as you say. You are surprised that Chinese don't want to help themselves? What's surprising about that? There are millions of Americans who don't give a crap about the poor in their country. A lot of Europeans hate the immigrants and the poor in their countries as well. Corruption and greedy people exist everywhere, this has nothing to do with those people being Chinese. If someone sees foreigners coming in with packs of money to help the poor, of course there will be plenty of touts who will want to put it in their own pockets. I don't see what's surprising about this...Do that in any country and you will encounter the same problem. As for foreigners wanting to help Chinese, this is a very recent occurance, as you know. For the past two centuries, plenty of foreigners also wanted to "help" the Chinese. The British wanted to help them with their trade, Japanese wanted to help them with their superior culture. Russians, Germans, Americans, etc, etc...You appear quite well-educated so you probably know this history very well. I don't see any reason why Chinese should trust foreigners now any more than they did before. I am not saying that your or your organization's intentions are bad, but I think the Chinese are certainly justified in their overly suspicious reactions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holyman Posted June 7, 2004 at 01:57 PM Report Share Posted June 7, 2004 at 01:57 PM if u have doubts, back it up with facts to prove ur point, not '泛泛之谈'. i already back my statements up with examples, its ur turn. yeah, cheating and frauds do happen in other countries as well, but they are unlike those in china. i remember some yrs back in people's daily or qingnianbao, cant remember, there is this case in he'nan province: a young man removed all the flesh from his mother's dead body after she died of illness and sold it to a butcher shop, as pork. i mean, yes, dishonesty do happen elsewhere, but its not like this kind. u see anywhere else someone remove the flesh from his mother's dead body and sell it as pork? in chinese its called '性质恶劣'. and cover-ups? u mean the west actually had less freedom of speech compared to china? I don't see any reason why Chinese should trust foreigners now any more than they did before. I am not saying that your or your organization's intentions are bad, but I think the Chinese are certainly justified in their overly suspicious reactions. i think u do need to brush up either ur comprehension, or go wang'fu'jing to change a brain. i know they do sell monkey's brain by the roadside along dong'hua'men last time. when did i mention anything about chinese being suspicious to foreigners? cant u read from my lines? the chinese are using education funds for other god-knows-what purposes, it's called mishandling, it's dishonesty to the people whom they asked for the money to set up schools. and dont talk to me about 老皇历, i am talking about things thats happening b4 ur very eyes: 贪污，失信，挪用公款，understand? and that doesnt hurt any foreigners, it's only hurting ur own bloody education system. and the money doesnt come from westerners only, it came from people everywhere over the world, chinese, westerners, japanese, koreans, cos they think they should help the poor children in china, i hope u see that right and stop blabbling crap. so u are saying bcos they are suspicious towards foreigners they can use the money to fill their own bloody pockets instead of setting up the schools? 你是不是脑子进水? There are millions of Americans who don't give a crap about the poor in their country. A lot of Europeans hate the immigrants and the poor in their countries as well. Corruption and greedy people exist everywhere, this has nothing to do with those people being Chinese. If someone sees foreigners coming in with packs of money to help the poor, of course there will be plenty of touts who will want to put it in their own pockets. I don't see what's surprising about this...Do that in any country and you will encounter the same problem. americans dont give a crap cos they enjoy some welfare from their govt. does the chinese enjoy these? yeah u can say there is 低保. but how many 下岗工人 actually get it? yeah, corruption exists everywhere but i dont see any worst than china. do u need me to give u further examples of corruption in china? so the foreigners who came to help deserved to be robbed or killed? u heard of something called '强盗逻辑'? no? check it up. and yes, from ur point of view, it's probably very normal for japanese to invade china since the chinese, who are foreigners to the japanese, are rich in resources and wealthy. 35mils deaths? i dont see what's surprising. its nothing at all. go figure that urself, u moron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunyata Posted June 7, 2004 at 07:15 PM Report Share Posted June 7, 2004 at 07:15 PM holybitch wrote: and yes, from ur point of view, it's probably very normal for japanese to invade china since the chinese, who are foreigners to the japanese, are rich in resources and wealthy. 35mils deaths? i dont see what's surprising. its nothing at all. go figure that urself, u moron. Look, honey, there is no reason to get so worked up...by the way, just for your information, I am not Chinese, you retard! When did I ever say I was Chinese? Take that cork out of your arse, coz it's obviously making you too nervous and unable to think straight...If you don't like working in China, then what the hell are you complaining about? Get the freak out of there and shut the hell up. What's with all this whining and complaining? I just give you my opinion and you blast off like you have chili peppers in your arse...chill dude, go cure your own over-excited brain and stop your verbal diarrhea! as for your japanese invasion of China comment, I don't see what the hell you are talking about or how it is connected to anything i said... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quest Posted June 7, 2004 at 07:24 PM Report Share Posted June 7, 2004 at 07:24 PM yeah, cheating and frauds do happen in other countries as well, but they are unlike those in china. i remember some yrs back in people's daily or qingnianbao, cant remember, there is this case in he'nan province: a young man removed all the flesh from his mother's dead body after she died of illness and sold it to a butcher shop, as pork. i mean, yes, dishonesty do happen elsewhere, but its not like this kind. u see anywhere else someone remove the flesh from his mother's dead body and sell it as pork? in chinese its called '性质恶劣'. holyman u are getting silly... really.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quest Posted June 7, 2004 at 07:27 PM Report Share Posted June 7, 2004 at 07:27 PM thread locked. Please spend your energy in some other threads. Quest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roddy Posted June 7, 2004 at 09:48 PM Report Share Posted June 7, 2004 at 09:48 PM holybitch wrote: you retard i think u do need to brush up either ur comprehension, or go wang'fu'jing to change a brain and stop blabbling crap 你是不是脑子进水? u moron Roddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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