Tones when Counting

[jhargett]

I have a friend who says two different native Chinese people told him that when you are counting in Chinese, you don't use the correct tones for the numbers, but rather say everything in the 2nd tone. I have been studying Chinese for about 8 years and I have never heard this. Anybody else heard this?

[Hofmann]

All second tone? Nope.

[kdavid]

Never heard of this.

Based on my experience, all native speakers here in Harbin use correct tones when counting. Hence the 四是四十是十十四是十四。。。tongue twister.

[hidden12345]

If you have been studying Chinese for 8 years, would it be unreasonable for one to infer that if this phenomenon had in fact been occurring, you would have personally heard it by now?

[Hanyu'sWay]

The number one, 一，can be pronounced in the first, second, or fourth tone, depending on the tone of the following character.

一片光明 - first or second tone

一心一意 - fourth tone and second tone.

[lokki]

一片光明 - first or second tone

Quite so, but there the character following the number is not the next number up, so this is not a case of "when you are counting", which is what the original question was about.

Same thing with 四是四十是十十四是十四。。。

"When you are counting": 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,...

I think I have read elsewhere, and observed in practice (though my experience is very limited) that in some relaxed situations the Chinese will not make such a big distinction between tones as they would in formal speech. One text even claimed you can catch them speaking "almost without tones" in some cases.

So what about that situation when you are counting things and quietly whisper (or mumble) the numbers to yourself as you go along. Would they always make a clear distinction between the tones there?

Edited August 14, 2008 at 02:08 PM by lokki

[Lu]

Think of the morning excercise counting: yi, er, san, si, er, er, san, si etc. All proper tones there. Some people might count in all second tones, but I don't recall ever hearing it.

[889]

Yi . . . er . . . san . . . KAISHI!

[jhargett]

As was pointed out, I was not asking about tone sandhi, but rather using all second tones. Lokki and Lu, I was thinking along the same lines as you. I can see how when exercising and counting the repetitions that you wouldn't be so strict about tones. In that case though, I would think it would be more of an absence of tones than using all second tones.

As far as Chinese people sometimes speaking "almost without tones", I definitely agree with this. I don't think anyone uses all the correct tones all the time (except for that guy announcing at the Olympic Opening Ceremony, man, that guy had perfect Pǔtōnghuà.)

[Lu]

jhargett, I'm afraid you misunderstood, I meant that in the exercise counting, all the proper tones are used. Maybe not as clear as in CCTV commentary, but they're definitely there.

[HashiriKata]

I can see how when exercising and counting the repetitions that you wouldn't be so strict about tones.

This may be true of foreigners speaking Chinese, but not true at all for Chinese people speaking Chinese. In fact, it is probably more true to say that it can be difficult for Chinese people to speak Chinese without tones. So yes, Lu, you're absolutely right!

[A life of study]

Well it is impossible for anyone to speak any language without tones. They might not be regularised, phonemic tones, but every syllable you utter will be some where on the tone register.

[jhargett]

Well of course that is technically true, you will always be speaking in some tone. But in Chinese when we say 'without tone' it is generally understood to be in a monotone, no? I will be more careful about how I use that phrase though.

Just to be clear, I had a really hard time believing this to be true, but I did not want to be so arrogant as to think I had all the answers.

[davidj]

Well it is impossible for anyone to speak any language without tones. They might not be regularised, phonemic tones, but every syllable you utter will be some where on the tone register.

Chinese actually has both. The tones that beginners are taught are shengdiao, but the intonation that it shares with English is called yudiao. If you can get hold of the book "Hanyu yuyin jiaocheng" and look at pages 140 onwards, you can see this. If you thought you understood all about tone sandhi, have a look at page 150!

[realmayo]

Hmm, I see Elina has this book at studychineseculture.com, perhaps I should buy a copy. There seem to be tapes too -- know if these are any good? (link)

Edited August 24, 2008 at 09:33 AM by realmayo

[skylee]

My question is irrelevant to tones or counting. But are casette tapes still widely used? Do people still buy them?

[realmayo]

I'd always buy something digital rather than tapes ... given the choice. But if something is recommended and it only has tapes, then I guess I'd dig out an old rusty walkman to listen. But I can't think of any other reason I'd have for listening to a tape these days.

[A life of study]

Chinese actually has both. The tones that beginners are taught are shengdiao, but the intonation that it shares with English is called yudiao. If you can get hold of the book "Hanyu yuyin jiaocheng" and look at pages 140 onwards, you can see this. If you thought you understood all about tone sandhi, have a look at page 150!

Can you post a scan of the page?

[A life of study]

My question is irrelevant to tones or counting. But are casette tapes still widely used? Do people still buy them?

Lots of books in China are available with cassette tapes only. I hope they move over to CDs soon.

[davidj]

Hmm, I see Elina has this book at studychinese.com, perhaps I should buy a copy. There seem to be tapes too -- know if these are any good?

I don't know about the tapes, but for the book you need either to have some prior knowledge of phonetics (at least read an academic introduction to phonetics, written, in your language, first) or to be a reasonably competent reader of technical material. I'd put myself in the former category.

I got it because there are certain sounds that my teachers could only describe by making them and I was having trouble working out what I was doing wrong. Some people may find imitating the teacher's sounds easier, but I like to understand the mechanism.

I think the book itself is intended for teachers, although I expect any recording are for the students. The book gives articulations of sounds in much more detail than the normal student texts and goes into detail on ordinary sandhi, e.g. how vowels change according to the preceding consonant. It covers typical mistakes made by speakers of the most common native languages of students of Chinese.