Tones when Counting

[realmayo]

Thanks but hold on -- is this book in Chinese? No way I could make use of it if it is.

[roddy]

That book's been recommended on here for a few years - first I think by Carlo, then I picked it up and I'm sure a few of us have copies now. It is excellent, but you need a decent reading knowledge of Chinese to tackle it - it has been written for use by foreign students, but after two or three years of a degree course.

studychinese.com

studychineseculture.com

[davidj]

If you can get hold of the book "Hanyu yuyin jiaocheng" and look at pages 140 onwards, you can see this. If you thought you understood all about tone sandhi, have a look at page 150!

Can you post a scan of the page?

I doubt that scanning page 150 would be compatible with UK copyright law.

However there is a web site referenced. I can't remember whether or not this has the diagrams; I only printed the text, and, unfortunately it wasn't responding when I tried it last night, but then neither was the HSK site responding earlier in the week; I get the impression some .edu.cn sites are term time only.

According to the Wayback Machine, it looks like the link may have rotted a couple of years ago, however they have archived a version from 2002, which does contain usable links to images that were used for that page. You may need to force the GB2312 character set.

What the page contains is a passage with an indication of the actual pitch movements and durations. It is, actually, possible to create this sort of diagram yourself, using sound manipulation tools than can create FFT waterfalls; I've tried it using Audacity. They have, however, just picked out the key frequency and probably slightly idealised it.

[imron]

I doubt that scanning page 150 would be compatible with UK copyright law.

Why not? Fair-use (and the British fair-dealing equivalent) both accommodate the use of a small portion of a work for review purposes, so long as the original is credited, which is essentially what you'd be doing here.

[A life of study]

British fair-use laws cover 5% of the text.

[davidj]

I don't want to spend a lot of time re-familiarising myself with UK copyright law, but UK fair dealing is generally considered much more restrictive than US fair use and limits vary between activities.

In the case of criticism and review, I believe there has to be significant value added by the review process, so it is not a way of publishing pure samples.

In this particular case, for the particular page in question, the round about web route I gave will give you the same material in much better quality than a scan.

Actually one of the biggest problems with copyright and Chinese teaching is that teachers are very willing to distribute copies of text book pages and students to help them produce the copies.

Certain UK educational institutions (including ordinary schools for children) have specific right to photocopy material, but there are strict controls on this (if I remember correctly, the result is not supposed to be taken out of the school nor be used for subsequent classes, but I'd need to check to be certain). I'm not at all certain that the average weekend school is covered and very much doubt any have checked their status, or monitor such usage. On occasions I've actually gone and bought the book to avoid making a scene, whilst trying to remain legal, myself.

Even with the dispensation for schools, publishers can opt out. Typically one would expect publishers of books intended for use in schools to opt out.

For non-print media, one generally needs to buy a licence from a relevant rights collection society, but that only covers you for material from subscribers to the society. I think that may include Hong Kong publishers, but not mainland ones. I'm not sure if the book exemption applies to foreign publications.

Generally, there is a very big gap between what the general public thinks should be allowed under copyright and what is actually allowed, and, in many cases, it is getting bigger, as Western economies become more and more dependent on intellectual property.

[roddy]

Either way, I'm not sure we need an in-depth discussion of copyright law, and an English language summarizing of the content would probably be as valuable as a scan . . .

[realmayo]

Actually I believe international copyright law clearly states that anything China related can be copied to your heart's content.

[davidj]

English language summarizing of the content

In this case, the picture may be worth a thousand words. However, examples are:

• you definitely cannot just join together four basic tone patterns, even after applying the simple sandhi rules;
  
• third tone, when before first tone tends to have a very short fall, or no fall, followed by a constant low;
  
• consecutive fourth tones tend to accumulate, rather than starting at high each time, although there may be some, or even complete recovery and the amount of fall varies between syllables;
  
• neutral tones can often be associated with significant pitch changes, particularly downwards;
  
• there are distinct sentence level pitch variations, particularly downwards, at the end of statements (there are no questions in the passage, but I'd expect a rise).
  

The preceding pages tend to suggest that both the general pitch, and the amplitude of syllable pitch changes, varies throughout a sentence and with sentence type. It looks like questions rise and imperatives rise a lot.

discussion of copyright

I was going to let the first comment go unchallenged.

[realmayo]

consecutive fourth tones tend to accumulate

Does this mean they get progressively higher and fall progressively further?

[davidj]

consecutive fourth tones tend to accumulate

Does this mean they get progressively higher and fall progressively further?

The basic conclusion is that there are no simple rules, but the tendency is not to start higher, and to only to increase the depth for the second consecutive syllable, but to split the total change amongst the syllables, with no change between the end of one and the start of the next.

There are exceptions, though.