我哪里不文明了啊: Why the 了?

[muyongshi]

See, I can be right every now and again.

[HashiriKata]

See, I can be right every now and again.

Of course, you can be right every now and again , but not necessarily this time, because the controversy still stands the way it came:

我哪里不文明了啊

anonymoose was asking about "了" in that sentence, but imron & gato mentioned above the emphaitc-effect of the combination "了啊", so that doesn't necessarily agree with you that "了" here alone is for emphasis

[muyongshi]

I still think I'm right

Sorry... wish I had a more intelligent answer. But everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if mine is right

[HashiriKata]

I still think I'm right

Granted!

(If that makes you smile )

[anonymoose]

Not totally sure, but I think 了 is used to indicate past tense here.

But the sentence is in a negative form, so surely it would be 我哪里沒文明啊 without the 了 in that case?

[jiangping]

Well, I just asked a native speaker and apparently the 了 has "no particular meaning"...Mm hmm! I suspect that probably means it's just there for emphasis. I don't wanna get involved in the 了/ 啊 argument, though I feel I should point out they also frequently say "了啦" at the end of sentences in Taiwan

[leeyah]

Right, it's the emphasis thing, possibly without any special 'meaning' of its own. But, since this is a matter of verbal self-justification or self-defense,

我哪里沒文明啊

doesn't sound like something you'd hear people say naturally in conversation (the awkwardness of pronunciation of "ng" in 明 simply 'calls' for an 'l' as in 了 or 啦 after it, yes, for emphasis, same as the 'modesty' of 哩, or the 'suggestiveness' of 啵 ). So, I'm not saying it's incorrect, just not conversational enough.

On the other hand, the sentence with 啦啊 as suggested by previous posters sounds just right, and is actually very often heard in speech>>我哪里沒文明啦啊! What do you mean I'm being uncivilized?!!

[muyongshi]

I just asked two of my friends and they both thought that it was simply the usage of 啦 for emphasis. A 感叹词.

[anonymoose]

I guess we'll have to just put the 了 down to emphasis then.

But what still puzzles me is that the native speakers I have asked about it say it is compulsory to make the sentence 通順.

[leeyah]

通顺么? Hmmm, sounds like one of those unfathomable Chinese mysteries...

“说话要通顺！说通顺了, 对方才明白。“

[gato]

If 了 is used emphasis, then the sentence should mean the same thing (but with less emphasis) without 了, right?

我哪里不文明?

vs.

我哪里不文明了啊?

你怎么不高兴？

vs

你怎么不高兴了啊？

Do they mean exactly the same thing, with a different emphasis? Maybe that's an easier question for most native speakers to answer.

Native speakers who haven't studied grammar aren't going to be able to explain the function of a particular grammatical structure, but they should be able to tell if two sentences feel different.

Be creative. Think like a social scientist. Find other ways of testing your hypothesis if a direct question doesn't work.

[leeyah]

Native speakers who haven't studied grammar aren't going to be able to explain the function of a particular grammatical structure, but they should be able to tell if two sentences feel different.

They FEEL different, definitely:

"我哪里不文明?" is just a simple question: why (do you say) I'm uncivilized? (as: in general) >>same as when a 大夫 asks about why you're not feeling well: "你哪里不舒服?" >. plain talk, no need for 语气词.

vs.

"我哪里不文明了啊?" protesting at his 对方's judgment of him acting in an uncivilized way at one time in their conversation, hence the 了啊 for emphasis & 通顺. （明白吗？）

[gato]

Are you saying "你哪里不舒服了?" is a protest?

[leeyah]

Read again & compare:

(1) 你哪里不舒服? = 你哪里不舒服了?

vs

(2) 你哪里不舒服了啊?! = 你哪里不舒服啦啊?!

There's a significant difference in tone (语气表达) between sentence pair (1) vs sentence pair (2)

*Let's suppose the second pair is coming from a panic-stricken friend & hopefully not an inexperienced (or charlatan) doc

[fengyixiao]

Read again & compare:

(1) 你哪里不舒服? = 你哪里不舒服了? （Here the 了 mean something has been done.）

vs

(2) 你哪里不舒服了啊?! = 你哪里不舒服啦啊?!(Here the 啊 imply the talker is impatience. And the 啦 in china is ofen used by 广州人。)

[muyongshi]

(1) 你哪里不舒服? = 你哪里不舒服了? （Here the 了 mean something has been done.）

NO! It indicates a change of state!

你哪里不舒服了啊?! = 你哪里不舒服啦啊?!(Here the 啊 imply the talker is impatience. And the 啦 in china is ofen used by 广州人。)

Ummm and no again. Not impatience, but rather a tone of surprised concern.

[xiaocai]

没有含义

为了句子通顺

中国人习惯

This is exactly what came up in my mind when I first saw the OP.

Quote:

(1) 你哪里不舒服? = 你哪里不舒服了? （Here the 了 mean something has been done.）

NO! It indicates a change of state!

Aren't they the same question? I just feel that the 了 here does not change anything other than the length of the sentence.

Quote:

你哪里不舒服了啊?! = 你哪里不舒服啦啊?!(Here the 啊 imply the talker is impatience. And the 啦 in china is ofen used by 广州人。)

Ummm and no again. Not impatience, but rather a tone of surprised concern.

It does sound to me that the person could be a bit impatient, depending on the context of the conversation.

[muyongshi]

....depending on the context of the conversation.

And to me, the context was a concerned friend since I am such a kind-hearted person.

[Altair]

I don't have the time to go through all my reasoning, but I think that there are two different issues here: what 了 actually means and how it can be used in discourse.

In all languages, a feature that actually means one thing can be used to convey another. For instance, the conditional tense in English can be used to convey politeness, even thought it does not actually have any meaning of politeness. Similarly, I think that 了 never directly means emphasis, but can be used to give a certain emphasis to a sentence.

In the subject sentence, I think that 了 clarifies that the speaker is talking about an immediate situation and not something in general. One possible translation might be: "How am I being uncivilized?" Another might be: "How do you figure I am uncivilized?"

In my view, 了 never means past tense or emphasis, but rather indicates relative priority. When applied to a state, it means that some state began or begins to be relevant before some other point of reference. Some people cover this usage by the term "change of state," but I think that notion can be imprecise and hard to apply for a non-native speaker. Not all changes of state in Chinese require 了.

In the phrase 我哪里不文明了 (and whenever we have to analyze the meaning of 了) the trick is how to identify what is being referenced and what is prior to what. In this case, I think that the previous speaker has made a judgment or an assessment and that the 了 indicates the start of the state when this new assessment holds true. Without 了, the statement could represent a general comment on the speakers character, rather than a specific assessment. (E.g., How am I an uncivilized person?)

Another possible interpretation, is that the state of being 不文明 is also something new, and so 了 stresses that we are talking about the start of this state and not something that is generally true at all times and a general characteristic of the speaker. The translation here might be: "How have I been uncivilized?"

To capture both possibilities, I think the sentence could be translated: "Now, how am I being crude?" The English indicates that we are not talking about a general characteristic, but about a judgment of a temporary state. The English and the Chinese approximate the same meaning, but get there by very different means.

[gato]

Here is hopefully the definition answer: the attached PDF is an excerpt from

"现代汉语虚词词典" (analogous to a usage dictionary in the English world) published by Peking University Press on the different usages of 了, which takes up an entire 8 pages of the dictionary! (I would highly recommend this dictionary for the more advanced learner, especially for writing essays and translation work.)

You'll see there are two sub-entries for 了, indicated by the subscripts 1 (p. 381) and 2 (p.385). 了(1) and 了(2) each has its own usage.

了(1) is the usage most of us are familiar with, basically to indicate a completed action.

了(2), on the other hand, has a mixed function.

Sometimes, it is used ONLY to indicate emphasis (感叹) (entry 四 on p. 387). An example of this would be "太好了！“ In the dictionary entry, this second meaning of emphasis is indicated by the subscript 2.

Other times, however, 了(2) is used to indicate BOTH a completed action and emphasis. The dictionary indicates this dual function with the subscript 1+2.

The example in the thread title of ”我哪里不文明了?“ would fall into this category of dual function of 1+2. The relevant dictionary entry is on page 387：

五、1:句尾后另有一语气。多询问发生什么新情况【有疑而问】，或证实发生了什么情况【反问】 ；用于陈述句少 ：

你不是把票子给他了么 | 今天不是星期三了吗？你怎么不去练功呢？ | 祥林嫂，你们的阿毛如果还在，不是也就有这么大了么？（鲁迅）

The usage in our title example is 反问 (rhetorical question), which is used to prove that something has happened.

The rhetorical question: Where was I uncivil? （我哪里不文明了？）

The only answer expected: No, you were not uncivil. （没有，你没有不文明。）

Another example with an action verb instead of a "stative verb" (aka "adjective"):

- Didn't I tell you that? （我不是告诉你了吗？）

Le_Grammar.pdf