Guangdong / Southern China accents, etc?

[renzhe]

I DO speak with a Taiwanese accent, but I dont do what some Taiwanese people do, which is to add in lots of long endings to their sentances.. hence.. I wouldn't say "tau yin laaaaaaaaaa" if something was annoying, which can usually give someone a clue that you're speaking with a Taiwan accent.

I think that my friend from Haerbin had spoken to several Taiwanese who tend to do this with their words and was surprised that I didn't.

You have to understand that the prejudices about "typical" accents are usually formed based on very limited experience.

It's quite likely that your Harbin friend didn't really know much about how Taiwanese people actually speak and was going on some anecdotal experience from some corny teenager show from Taiwan.

The common wisdom seems to be that everyone in the South (including Taiwan) speaks without retroflexes, yet I've met dozens of people who grew up there who had very nice and proper pronunciation.

He had the kind of accent where there was a hint of an er at the end of some words, but not all.

Seriously, nobody on this planet talks like that.

[renzhe]

EDIT: At least in my textbook, it's zhàopiàn and xiàngpiàn without erhua,

This is also the case for the HSK word lists.

My 新世纪汉英大词典 lists zhàopiàn as the correct one, and zhàopiānr as a colloquialism.

Mind the tone! piān only has the first tone in this context (and piānzi, which refers to an X-Ray).

[imron]

Imron, strangely enough, I can probably only read about 60-70% of what's written on that page (in simplified chinese!

Like I said, feel free to post something of your own There are also easier examples later on in that thread.

and see if I dare to post my speaking

Anyone can say they have good Chinese pronunciation, it's another thing entirely to demonstrate it

[chrix]

My 新世纪汉英大词典 lists zhàopiàn as the correct one, and zhàopiānr as a colloquialism.

Mind the tone! piān only has the first tone in this context (and piānzi, which refers to an X-Ray).

The one dictionary I trust on erhua matters largely agrees with yours. However, we're getting into wiggly territory: how do those dictionaries define what's standard erhua and what's a colloquialism and what's a Beijingism? It would be nice if we could get hold of a list issued by the broadcasting authority, because I think that in print erhua would not always be shown, while the standard for radio and TV broadcasting might still prescribe erhua for some words.

[renzhe]

I remember imron once posting a list like that, but it might have been qingsheng instead of erhua, can't remember for sure.

[chrix]

Yeah, I can't find the thread right now, but I remember it, it wasn't an official list, though it was meant to aid people preparing for the putonghua exam...

[Daan]

There's one attached to the relevant Baidu article, but I'm not sure if that's the one used by the broadcasting authorities.

[atitarev]

I repeat the point I made before.

Northern Mandarin speakers consider Mandarin their native language, not Cantonese or Wu speakers, for whom Putonghua is a second language. Hence all variations of words, including Erhua are considered if not formal, then colloquial Mandarin words and the new words can be coined by Northern Mandarin speakers.

E.g. 今儿 (jīnr) is included in the ABC dictionary as colloquial for 今天 (jīntiān) but it's still Mandarin, not another dialect, even if it's used mainly in the North of mainland China and may not be included in HSK (yet). languages change and this may be considered a neologism, if you like but they do penetrate the internet and then into mass media. You can expect to hear these words these words to be used in Mandarin movies and entertainment programs, whether you think it's standard or not so standard, it doesn't matter, as it is used and these words are worth paying attention to.

Google hits:

"今儿" (in quotes) about 2,070,000 Chinese (Simplified)

No wonder it's in the Chinese dictionary.

[renzhe]

That's a very relevant article, thanks Daan.

Let's see what they say about the function of 儿化:

①表示温和、喜爱的感情色彩。

②形容细小、轻微的状态和性质。

③确定词性。兼作动词、名词或兼作形容词、名词的词，儿化后确定为名词词性。

④区别词义。

So basically exactly what we discussed in this thread.

The list seems to me more like a list of phrases where the 儿化 is optional and commonly used, rather than a list where it is prescribed.

[chrix]

atitarev, I do get your point but the problem is that many of these erhuaisms are not necessarily reflected in the writing. Even if you listen to a lot of material, you as a learner have to judge whether it's standard or colloquial or dialectal, because register does matter. If you want to use those erhuaisms yourself, you have to be aware of the usage range of such words.

I for one, and I think some other here too, would like to start with some kind of official list, and use that as a starting-point. It'd be much easier than doing all that work yourself.

[renzhe]

An official list would really be interesting.

But, like you said, register matters. The Baidu article also mentions that science and literature shows, as well as the political ones are advised to cut down on erhua, whereas entertainment and sports tend to use more.

So an official list will at best cover the conservative use, and the colloquial use will vary depending on the circumstances. Yet, being colloquial doesn't automatically make it nonstandard.

[SirDude]

Renzhe-

An official list would really be interesting.

Would this list be of any help?

http://www.eudict.com/?word=erhua〈=engchi

**** notice the little "next" in white text in the lower right-hand corner of the chart / list, it's more then one page long*****

The whole Erhua topic is becoming more and more interesting to me since the more I read / research the more clear it is that the people of southern China don't care to use it. Every single page I have read so far has talked about how people don't use it, don't like it, or will even go out of their way not to use any words with with.

[renzhe]

We're looking for an official list, like something that is used to test Mandarin proficiency for broadcasters and the like.

And keep in mind that most people in southern China speak Mandarin as a second language.

[roddy]

I'm sure a 普通话测试大纲 will have one, and I can't see that you're going to get any more official than that (I know the linguistic authorities here love to be prescriptive and everything, but they don't take it anywhere near as seriously as you lot ).

Imron posted a link here if that's any help.

[renzhe]

Wow, imron posted the list in the most relevant thread. No wonder we couldn't find it lol

And I agree about taking it too seriously, but foreigners tend to do this when learning a language. The universal opinion on erhua from all native speakers I've ever talked about is "it will make you sound northern", and that's it. No holy wars and stuff.

Edited February 10, 2010 at 09:52 AM by renzhe

[Shi Tong]

I already did. Now go look up the publisher/author of yours and we can see if it's from the same series...

EDIT: At least in my textbook, it's zhàopiàn and xiàngpiàn without erhua,

I've unfortunately lent my shitinghuayu to a friend (who is supposed to be trying to learn), so I dont have it to hand. However, I remember specifically learning Zhaopianer etc in my shitinghuayu because I remember leaving class being all happy that I could say "photograph", only to find that it was "wrong".

It's quite likely that your Harbin friend didn't really know much about how Taiwanese people actually speak and was going on some anecdotal experience from some corny teenager show from Taiwan.

It's more likely to be that, because he lives in the UK and has some Taiwanese friends, his friend happens to speak a very Taiwanese brand of Mandarin, therefore was expecting everything to have laaaaaa at the end:wink:

Seriously, nobody on this planet talks like that.

I remember watching a documentary/ film about mining in China, and they added an er to the end of almost all of their words.. even where they would call out the name "Yuan fong ming" as "yuan fong minger". I basically found it hard to understand what they were talking about in a lot of the show.

Like I said, feel free to post something of your own There are also easier examples later on in that thread.

I'll take a look through and see if I can find a sample that I can read, otherwise it's asking the wife to translate the simplified Chinese *which she doesn't understand too well* into traditional and then explaining how to pronounce those words I cant read!!

Anyone can say they have good Chinese pronunciation, it's another thing entirely to demonstrate it

And that's assuming that I made it up!

hahaha

Northern Mandarin speakers consider Mandarin their native language, not Cantonese or Wu speakers, for whom Putonghua is a second language. Hence all variations of words, including Erhua are considered if not formal, then colloquial Mandarin words and the new words can be coined by Northern Mandarin speakers.

All language is in a constant state of flux, so, Northern, Southern, they can all "do what they like" with it.

I remember hearing a new Mandarin phrase in Taiwan which was a) so new my wife didn't understand it, B) local to Taiwan and c) definately in Mandarin, using Mandarin pronunciation and characters, so it's not surprising that people in such a large country can have several ways of saying things.

The only thing that makes something official is if it's used enough and then appears in a dictionary!

[renzhe]

I remember watching a documentary/ film about mining in China, and they added an er to the end of almost all of their words.. even where they would call out the name "Yuan fong ming" as "yuan fong minger". I basically found it hard to understand what they were talking about in a lot of the show.

You do understand that miners don't speak the most standard language out there, surely.

I mean, I can barely understand Shu Qi, but I'm not claiming that this is supposed to be the standard on Taiwan.

If you want to hear what standard Mandarin sounds like on the Mainland, you should watch CCTV news, or a recent TV series that uses standard pronunciation. Modern series about Beijing youths will obviously have lots of Beijinghua, but a costume drama or a wuxia show should be pretty standard.

The only thing that makes something official is if it's used enough and then appears in a dictionary!

In English.

But not with French or Chinese.

[imron]

otherwise it's asking the wife to translate the simplified Chinese

You're more than welcome to get your wife to find something completely new in Traditional and post that, or just make something up yourself. Don't feel you need to limit yourself to what's there already. If you post something new, it may even encourage others to participate also

And that's assuming that I made it up!

All I'm saying is, actions speak louder than words You were the person talking about how good your pronunciation was, so naturally we would all like to hear it for ourselves. It shouldn't take more than a couple of minutes to do.

[Shi Tong]

You do understand that miners don't speak the most standard language out there, surely.

Assuming I dont is an insult.. and I really dont think I even suggested that.

I mean, I can barely understand Shu Qi, but I'm not claiming that this is supposed to be the standard on Taiwan.

That's a shame, she's well worth understanding. Her Mandarin is spoken in a kind of sing song Taiwanese way. It's pretty standard for over there, but very high pitched and soft.

If you want to hear what standard Mandarin sounds like on the Mainland, you should watch CCTV news, or a recent TV series that uses standard pronunciation. Modern series about Beijing youths will obviously have lots of Beijinghua, but a costume drama or a wuxia show should be pretty standard.

I've watched all of sanguo yanyi, and I know the standard pronunciation on there. Is it up to date?

In English.

But not with French or Chinese.

How do they do it there then?

You're more than welcome to get your wife to find something completely new in Traditional and post that, or just make something up yourself. Don't feel you need to limit yourself to what's there already. If you post something new, it may even encourage others to participate also

hehehe

Fun, but I'm at work.. I will find a day to speak something, but I reckon I'd get pretty told off if I was recording something here!

All I'm saying is, actions speak louder than words You were the person talking about how good your pronunciation was, so naturally we would all like to hear it for ourselves. It shouldn't take more than a couple of minutes to do.

I agree, and I'm more than confident in my pronunciation.. you'll all realise that I do have a Taiwanese accent!

[chrix]

Yes, so keep finding excuses and just post it, and a day or two won't matter