Traditional Chinese Medicine

[rezaf]

Where is the western medicine's magic for cancer?

TCM is not magic, it is the result of a scientific look at nature by the ancient Chinese. They had more advanced observation methods than the machines we have. TCM is about the whole concept of balance in the body which is far more advanced and more difficult to understand than western medicine. There are indeed not many TCM practitioners who can master this knowledge. Personally practicing meditation and now qigong and reading Chinese philosophy has helped me a lot to understand some basic beginner ideas about how they could "see" the nature but still have a long way to go and the more I study the more I see the depth of this ancient science.

[rezaf]

Actually it is good that you mentioned cancer. I have 4 people in my family who have got cancer and I know for sure that western medicine is really helpless in curing it. Where western medicine sees some cells that don't die, TCM can see the body as a system connected to the universe. It can analyse the situation from many angles like the balance between our organs, our mental situation, our living environment and ... I am not saying that every TCM doctor can cure everything but when you think about it gives the doctor a very wide perspective of what's going on. Maybe a very advanced TCM doctor can cure it maybe a combination of both western medicine and TCM would be necessary. The window is open to the future of medicine and it has a long way to go indeed.

[daofeishi]

I also don't like to open this can of worms, but I'd like to point out that in testing whether a medicine is effective or not, you don't need to know how it works. You simply check a group of people getting the treatment against a control group. If the group given the medicine does statistically significantly better than the placebo-receiving control group, the medicine is said to work.

That scientific methods can't be used to check the validity of non-western medicine is therefore bullshit of the stinkiest kind, unless, of course, you claim that a medicine "works" if it is equivalent to (or worse than) doing nothing at all

Scientific medicine is nothing but a collection of medical methods that have been shown to work, as in the sense above. "Alternative" medicine that can actually be shown to work ceases to be "alternative" and becomes ordinary medicine.

I'd also like to point out that even if scientifically verified medicine does not contain the cure-all to any and every medical problem, that does not mean that the answer lies outside of it, with those who claim to have an answer but do not care about verifying their claims.

[daofeishi]

Western medicine is all about how much drugs doctors can "sell" their patients to "control" their condition and never really seek to cure the root cause.

Isn't removing an inflamed appendix "curing the root cause"? Isn't killing germs with antibiotics "curing the root cause"? Isn't inserting a stent in an artery to assist blood flow or doing a bypass "curing the root cause"? Isn't replenishing nutrients in case of deficiency "curing the root cause"?

There are of course cases where root causes cannot be presently cured. We can't get a malfunctioning pancreas to work again or an amputated limb to grow back out, but neither can homeopathy or acupuncture or herbal medicine.

Medicine is market-driven no matter where you are. Ginseng, herbs and acupuncture is a multi-million dollar industry in China. Putting the blame for medicine's shortcomings on degenerate capitalism is myopic. Getting a new drug on the market is not controlled by the drug companies, it involves expensive testing and FDA regulation. There are many steps between the creation of a new drug and its release on the market, and those intermediate steps are in place to insure the efficacy of the drug.

Adding to that, more effective drugs sell better and lawsuits hurt, so it is in the economic interest of the drug companies to create efficient, non-dangerous drugs.

[woliveri]

Isn't removing an inflamed appendix "curing the root cause"? Isn't killing germs with antibiotics "curing the root cause"? Isn't inserting a stent in an artery to assist blood flow or doing a bypass "curing the root cause"? Isn't replenishing nutrients in case of deficiency "curing the root cause"?

You are talking about Emergency medicine and in these cases Western Medicine is best. Never said anything to the contrary.

but:

1. An inflamed appendix, how did it get that way? What chronic conditions were there before it finally gave up?

2. Antibotics. Of course.. but, why not bolster the immune system with herbs and exercise (internal) and let the body do it's thing (before it gets to this stage)?

3. Stent. Same as above.

TCM seeks to address the chronic conditions and reverse those conditions before they get to the emergency stage.

[rezaf]

Isn't killing germs with antibiotics "curing the root cause"?

Only if it was that easy to kill bacterias without harming the body Antibiotics are infamous for heavily disturbing the balance of the body and a lot of times they are useless and harm the body. I had foliculitis for many years. I tried many dermatologist in four different countries with all kinds of antibiotics, but all were just a little bit effective. Then I tried a TCM doctor He gave me 清热解毒中成药 。 It was very effective but as soon as I finished the medicine the spots came back then the doctor gave me herbs so that I could prepare them at home. It was much more effective and after that I learned about 湿热 in my body and tried to avoid eating 湿热 food and ever since I have been fine.

Anyway antibiotics and surgery can't necessarily cure the cause of the problem. It varies case by case but if the body is unbalanced then infection and appendix are just manifestations of the root problem and if you cure them the manifestation will come back in another form. That's why in many cases when it's necessary we use western medicine for stabilising the situation because it's usually fast and then TCM for curing the root.

[rezaf]

Another problem that I had was TMJ syndrome for a long time. I tried everything but it didn't work. Even meditation(the way that I used to do it before) didn't work but I cured it myself by practicing Qigong. I don't even need to move a muscle or joint. I just know how to move the energy in the right meridians. I used to catch a cold for a long duration(weeks) because of my sinusitis problem but now it only lasts for 2 or 3 days because I use the right herb.

TCM is awesome but it really needs the patient's cooperation in changing his life-style and food to work.

[woliveri]

Exactly right. If a person take ownership of their health they will have far less need for medicines (western or eastern). I practice Qigong daily and all the whooie I had before has all but been elminated.

[jbradfor]

TCM is not magic, it is the result of a scientific look at nature by the ancient Chinese. They had more advanced observation methods than the machines we have.

Can you provide some examples of such "more advanced observation methods" they had? Have we lost them now?

I have 4 people in my family who have got cancer and I know for sure that western medicine is really helpless in curing it.

Why do you "know for sure"? In the west, the survival rate for many types of cancer is quite good. [And for other types quite bad.]

Antibiotics are infamous for heavily disturbing the balance of the body and a lot of times they are useless and harm the body.

And sometimes antibiotics are wonderful, curing a sickness within days with minimal of side effects. To dismiss antibiotics as ineffective, something that has time and and time again proven so effective, makes you look really out-of-touch. They are not perfect, of course, but used correctly they can be wonderful.

TCM is awesome but it really needs the patient's cooperation in changing his life-style and food to work.

That seems to go way beyond what I think of as TCM, and beyond medicine in general. I'm not saying lifestyle changes aren't important, in contrast I think they are critical for good health, but is that really medicine? Is eating a healthy diet and getting regular exercise TCM?

[rezaf]

Can you provide some examples of such "more advanced observation methods" they had? Have we lost them now?

Not totally lost, there are still traces. 李时珍 was also interested in knowing the origins of TCM theory about the meridiens and he found out that qigong practise can give us the power to see and feel them. The problem with the current TCM universities and their graduates is that we won't learn these things properly and we will just read some of it in theory. I have met a few qigong masters and monks who know medicine much better than any TCM doctor that I have seen because they have mastered the original observation method.

Why do you "know for sure"? In the west, the survival rate for many types of cancer is quite good.

Lets say the survival rate is good for a few types and bad for most of the rest. It comes back in many of the cases after long and painful treatments. I'm suggesting that a combination of TCM and western medicine might help if there is more research done. It's like the waterpipes in your house are old and cuase the water to leak in one place. putting a bucket in that place might help a little bit but then it starts leaking in another place, and then in more places. So what you should do is to stabilise the situation with whatever method you know in that place and then change the whole waterpipe system in your house.

And sometimes antibiotics are wonderful, curing a sickness within days with minimal of side effects. To dismiss antibiotics as ineffective, something that has time and and time again proven so effective, makes you look really out-of-touch. They are not perfect, of course, but used correctly they can be wonderful.

As you see I mentioned in some cases where we know that the effect of western medicine is faster and it is urgent we can use it. They are more poisonous than herbs, so they should be used carefully.

That seems to go way beyond what I think of as TCM, and beyond medicine in general. I'm not saying lifestyle changes aren't important, in contrast I think they are critical for good health, but is that really medicine? Is eating a healthy diet and getting regular exercise TCM?

There is more to lifestyle in Chinese medicine. A healthy diet in Chinese medicine means knowing the nature of the food, which is called 食治 and is complicated. Furthermore there are specific qigong moves that are beneficial for different organs and meridians which I think will be beneficial for my future patients. So yes the art of having a good lifestyle is a part of Chinese medicine. TCM is not just taking some herbs or treatments, it is balancing the system of the body with nature.

Edited May 4, 2010 at 12:26 AM by rezaf

[rezaf]

I'm not against western medicine. I think the difference between TCM and western medicine is that they view the nature from two different view points. It's like each has started from a different side of a thread. TCM starts from 精气, the basic energy in this universe, western medicine starts from the more superficial level of matter. Maybe TCM can advance into what western medicine knows and maybe western medicine can advance into what TCM knows. We have them both and we can try to combine them to get better results. However there is still a great distance between them but I believe that both of them will grow and will connect to each other in the future.

Edited May 4, 2010 at 01:25 AM by rezaf

[chrix]

The problem with 精 and 气, and what you call "basic energy of the universe", is that there is no scientific evidence that this mystical force exists (unless you mean the cosmic background radiation, but I don't think so)...

[rezaf]

It's because the western science is not advanced enough.

[chrix]

I think you should review http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

Also helpful might be the links in these articles:

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi#Scientific_investigation

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Chinese_medicine#Scientific_view

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acupuncture#Scientific_research_into_efficacy

Some further links beyond Wikipedia:

- http://consensus.nih.gov/1997/1997Acupuncture107html.htm

- http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/167/17/1892

- http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/101521787/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

- http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6882/5/10

- http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/content/ETO_5_3x_Chinese_Herbal_Medicine.asp

If I had the time, I'd also go look up stuff on medline. But seems to me that Western medicine is able to come up with models describing effects of TCM that don't rely on mystical forces whose existence can't be proven...

EDIT: I did have a brief look at MEDLINE/Pubmed, there seems to be tons of research being done, you just have to go look for it. And as jbradfor said, those bits of TCM that have held up in a scientific investigation, will be incorporated into western medicine. One article I found particularly interesting was http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17644431 (Review article, entitled "From traditional Chinese medicine to rational cancer therapy")

Excerpt from their conclusion:

Recently, the potential of natural products from plants and

especially from medicinal plants used in TCM has been

recognized by the scientific community in the Western

world. Disciplines such as phytochemistry and pharmacognosy

have enabled scientific analyses of herbal mixtures

and their bioactive molecules. Molecular biological

approaches help to elucidate the underlying mechanisms

of action of natural products. The fewer side effects

observed in phytotherapy and natural-product-based

therapies should not confuse us with the notion that

medicine from nature is more gentle than chemically

synthesized drugs. Unfortunate examples in the literature

demonstrate the possible toxicity of some natural products.

Although genotoxicity usually represents a severe adverse

event, in cancer therapy it is desired for tumour-cell killing.

Therefore, it is important to exploit the cytotoxic and

genotoxic potential of natural products from TCM. In view

of the unwanted side effects on the one hand and tumourspecific

cell killing on the other, issues of toxicity and

genotoxicity have to be clarified before TCM-derived drugs

enter the market.

Edited May 4, 2010 at 01:50 AM by chrix

[realmayo]

I understood that acupuncture, say, has an effect on the body which is unexplained by western science. But for lots of people, the Chinese explanation of why and how it produces its effect is not satisfactory.

No doubt herbs are powerful too. Loads of drugs come from plants. Asprin is one, I think. All the powerful painkillers too. So herbs can certainly have an effect on the body.

The idea of 上火, 'excessive internal heat', I thought was quite funny when I first came to China: I was suprised so many people believed eating certain types of food would have this kind of effect on the body. But then again, lots of people in the west believe that, say, eating lots of chocolate can help bring out spots. And eating fatty foods will make you fat. Is it such a big step to widen the circle of foods which have these kinds of effects on the body?

So I think it's natural that certain TCM will cause responses in the body. But I don't know if these responses are the same as what the TCM doctors promise. And since it's super-obvious that Western science has only a limited idea of how the body reacts to food, environment etc, I think it should keep an open mind.

[rezaf]

Western science can only describe the effects on the superficial level. As you see the base for the scientific method is to gather observable evidence. The problem is that there isn't a single level of awareness and observable evidence may change in different levels of awareness.The so-called western science has limited itself only to one level of awareness and all the machines that we have built for observing are also limited to that, however practicing qigong and different systems of meditation might help us in being able to shift our awareness of the world and gathering data from different levels.

[jbradfor]

Western science can only describe the effects on the superficial level.

That may or may not be true. But in the context of TCM, who cares? When evaluating medical care, all I care about is the "superficial" effects, such as survival rate, expected lifetimes, quality of life, side-effects, costs, etc. examined using the "scientific method". All else is irrelevant.

If you really want to argue for TCM, you are really not doing yourself a favor by going into such metaphysical tangent, at least to a western audience. Once problem TCM has, at least in the west, is the perception that it is based on superstition and bad science, and it is not taken seriously. "The so-called western science has limited itself only to one level of awareness and all the machines that we have built for observing are also limited to that" is not going to convince anyone that TCM is serious medicine.

[gato]

There is some confusion in this thread between "scientific method" and "scientific knowledge".

Scientific method is about doing controlled studies, like the double-blind studies used to test most modern medications. There shouldn't be any dispute about the merits of the scientific method. You can do scientific controlled studies on traditional Chinese medicine, just as well as you can on modern pharmaceuticals. It just takes motivation, discipline, time, and money. The key might be money. It takes a lot of moeny to do a double-blind controlled study with large sample size. Most studies on modern pharmaceuticals are paid by drug companies, the funding source for doing scientific studies on alternative medicine is much more scarce. Absence of scientific proof doesn't necessarily mean that something isn't true. It could be that it's impractical to prove it, or that while a study is practical, there is no money to fund the study to prove it.

The criticism about the current state of scientific knowledge is valid. Scientific knowledge still cannot explain many things. TCM seems to be one of these things.

There's also scientific theory, which should be distinguished from scientific fact or knowledge. A theory, put simply, is just an educated guess based on accumulated knowledge. It's not necessarily supported by empirical evidence. Evolution and relativity, when first proposed Darwin and Einstein, were just theories. By now, they have been pretty much accepted as correct because of the nearly overwhelming evidence in their favor, though there is still some doubt, just like in the case of global climate change.

I understood that acupuncture, say, has an effect on the body which is unexplained by western science. But for lots of people, the Chinese explanation of why and how it produces its effect is not satisfactory.

There are increasingly controlled studies being done on acupuncture. Interesting, western physical therapists have found that the human body have certain "trigger points". This discovery seems to be independent from the traditional teaching of 穴位 in Chinese medicine, though recent studies suggest that trigger points and 穴位 are referring to pretty much the same thing.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/16/AR2009031602018.html?sid=ST2009031602561

Millions Embrace Acupuncture, Despite Thin Evidence

http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/169/9/858

A Randomized Trial Comparing Acupuncture, Simulated Acupuncture, and Usual Care for Chronic Low Back Pain

http://mtevidence.ning.com/forum/topics/myofascial-trigger-points

Myofascial Trigger Points - Discussion on evidence and theory for practice.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/news2008-jax/4798.html

Mayo Clinic Study Shows Acupuncture and Myofascial Trigger Therapy Treat Same Pain Areas

Acupuncture and myofascial trigger therapy treat same pain areas, Mayo specialist says

Tuesday, May 13, 2008

Edited May 4, 2010 at 04:58 AM by gato

[realmayo]

This discovery seems to be independent from the traditional teaching of 穴位 in Chinese medicine, though recent studies suggest that trigger points and 穴位 are referring to pretty much the same thing.

I wonder if hundreds of years ago children were told not to fly their kites during thunderstorms because the thunderstorm god thought it was disrespectful, and would kill them. Prior to any more scientific understanding about electricity and lightning, this would be good advice: kite enthusiasts who believed in the thunderstorm god would have had a longer life expectancy than those kite enthusiasts who did not!

A UK doctor friend of mine told me he reckoned whoever first understood why acupuncture really(!) works, would make a fortune. I'm not so sure: no one could patent it could they? So there's no incentive for big companies to conduct expensive trials etc.

[Kenny同志]

Sometimes we don't believe something untill we see it.