Grammar #3 的得地

[James Garrison]

I just did a search online for

说的很快" and 说得很快" and they both returned a lot of hits, each over half a mil. Is there a difference in meaning between the two, such large usage of both terms has me puzzled. I am trying to get my head around using 得 and I have been going over this thread but still...

Okay, I want to say "what you said was correct". That could only be 你说得话很正确" and not "你说的话很正确"??

[skylee]

Okay, I want to say "what you said was correct". That could only be 你说得话很正确" and not "你说的话很正确"??

You could say -

你说得很正确 OR

你说的话很正确

[James Garrison]

Wow, quick reply, Skylee! Cheers for that.

So then, can one say that in this sentence 你说的话很正确 - you need to use 的 because it is followed by 话?

And, a further quesiton about Quest's rule for the following sentence:

可爱的小狗 - can I make this sentence without 的, or is the emission of 的 only used for colloquial speech? I was told that one may say "我女朋友" to sound more casual when speaking informally.

Oh, and what of the frequency for which I found 的 and 得 seemingly so easily interchanged? Or am I overlooking some hugely obvious point for which I will go "duh!" later?

[Altair]

I basically agree with Skylee's translations, but want to try to add something to the level of analysis.

I think [POP=ni shuo de hen zhengque]你说得很正确[/POP] corresponds in structure to "you spoke correctly" and [POP=ni shuo de hua hen zhengque]你说的话很正确[/POP] corresponds in structure to "What you said was correct" or "The one(s) you said was/were correct."

If you analyze the issues form English to Chinese, you can proceed in the following way. If 的, 得, or 地 is used in connection with an adjective, you need to decide whether it is used in a nominal or adverbial expression.

If you are talking about a noun or nominal expression, this requires 的. If you are talking about an adverb, this suggests 得 or 地. Chinese has two different structures that corresponds to English adverbs such as "quickly" or "slowly." The Chinese structures differ slightly in meaning, emphasis, or objectivity, but you can decide whether to use 得 or 地 simply by their position in the sentence. If the adverbial phrase is before the verb, use 地. If it comes after the verb, use 得.

I like Quest's list, which is very simple and clear. The only problem might be with number 3, because there are some cases which would require 的, for instance, [POP=nage gao de paobu pao de hen kuai]那个高的跑步跑得很快[/POP] (The tall one runs fast.)

By the way, I have read a suggestion that the spoken word 的 comes from a weakened pronunciation of Classical Chinese 之 and/or 者, whose relevant uses concern relating one noun to another or making an adjective into a noun and never involve adverbial expressions or complements (狀語 or 補語.)

It may also perhaps be helpful to English speakers to realize that the full meaning of 得 survives somewhat in its grammatical uses. The full meaning is "get, reach, achieve." Its grammatical uses concern how a verb's action reaches a certain state or achieves a certain impression. 你说得很正确 = *you speaking achieved (a state of) correct(ness). (*While perhaps understandable, this is not good English). It is the same meaning in potential sentences, except there, the action is viewed as merely projected. 你跳得过去 = *You jumping (will) achieve going across. (I.e., "you can jump across.")

[Quest]

Omission of 的 in the examples you cited: 可爱小狗 and 我女朋友 help to fuse the adjective and noun into a new noun. Sometimes the new noun is shortened ("acronym-ized"), for example: 很快的火车 -> 快车, which works like a noun.

[SWWLiu]

Okay' date=' I want to say "what you said was correct". That could only be 你说得话很正确" and not "你说的话很正确"??

[/quote']

You could say -

你说得很正确 OR

你说的话很正确

OR 你话说得很正确

as yet another possibility. : )

[monto]

Examples of the usages of 的、得、地 related to Topic I can think of

这是他的书。这本书是他的，也是他写的。这本书，他写得很辛苦，也写得不错。这本书是他废寝忘食地工作的结果。

This is his book. This book is his, and written by him. This book, written with hardship by him, is also well-written. This book is the result of that he worked painstakingly.

Sorry if there is someting wrong in my English. My English is limited to accurately translate My Chinese. And I will be grateful if someone could translate in the native way for me.

[SWWLiu]

Examples of the usages of 的、得、地 related to Topic I can think of

这是他的书。这本书是他的，也是他写的。这本书，他写得很辛苦，也写得不错。这本书是他废寝忘食地工作的结果。

Examples of the usages of 的、得、地 (diametrically opposite and totally) unrelated to the above:

以上這些例子簡直太棒了﹕既道地、又得體、的確好!

[Mugi]

This comment is in reference to a 2004 post, so probably of little interest to anyone now, but the "correctionist" in me is reluctant to let it go.

Note that it is never correct to substitute one for the other. Although they are all pronounced /de/ in Mandarin, in other dialects they are not homonyms (for instance in Cantonese, they are /dik1/, /dak1/, and /dei2/, respectively).

Employing the different characters 的, 得, 地 for /de/ is only relevant to Mandarin. The only common grammatical function shared here between Mandarin and Cantonese is 得, and even that may be a borrowing in Cantonese from 官話. The functions of 的 and 地 in Mandarin are usually carried out by 嘅 (ge3) and 噉 (gam2) respectively in colloquial Cantonese.

[skylee]

This comment is in reference to a 2004 post' date=' so probably of little interest to anyone now, but the "correctionist" in me is reluctant to let it go.

Note that it is never correct to substitute one for the other. Although they are all pronounced /de/ in Mandarin, in other dialects they are not homonyms (for instance in Cantonese, they are /dik1/, /dak1/, and /dei2/, respectively).

Employing the different characters 的, 得, 地 for /de/ is only relevant to Mandarin. The only common grammatical function shared here between Mandarin and Cantonese is 得, and even that may be a borrowing in Cantonese from 官話. The functions of 的 and 地 in Mandarin are usually carried out by 嘅 (ge3) and 噉 (gam2) respectively in colloquial Cantonese.

I don't understand what is to be corrected in what Claw said, which essentially pointed out that the three characters' pronunciations were not always the same in all dialects. Do you mean that 的 and 地 do not exist in Cantonese, or that they are not used? We who speak in Cantonese write in standard Chinese and if we have to read aloud something written in standard Chinese we read them aloud in Cantonese. We do not change 的 to 嘅 when we read them aloud. Why is employing the different characters only relevant in Mandarin?

[Sam Addington]

I seem to recall that the distinction between 的，地，得 was made in the earlier part of the twentieth century as part of the drive to standardize 国语（普通话）I don't know to what extent this distinction was made prior to the Thirties, for example. Does anyone know how pervasive its use was in the 白话 of say 红楼梦 for example?

[Wei-Ai-Lin]

In mandarin 得 can be pronounced differently as de (2nd tone), de (no tone) or dei (3rd tone), however they are not used interchangeably.

de (2nd tone) - get

他得了冒病。 He got the flu.

de (no tone) - refers to an ability to do something

我写得完。 I am able to finish writing it.

dei (3rd tone) - need, must, will

快走，电影得开始了。Hurry up, the movie is just about to start.

I'm still a student so if anyone can further elaborate on this it would be great.

[HashiriKata]

I'm still a student so if anyone can further elaborate on this it would be great.

Ok, here's my bit for you: what you said above about the pronunciations of 得 is correct. On the whole they are not interchangeable. But as with many things in languages, bear in mind the possibility of exceptions. For examples:

值得 can be pronounced as either zhíde or zhídé, depending on the person.

只得 can be as zhǐdé or zhǐděi

Cheers,

[Jialihai Jiejie]

只得 can be as zhǐdé or zhǐděi

Ah... Remember one of the Pinyin rules: Don't put two 3rd tones together. So, your second example 'zhǐděi' is probably rare?

Jialihai Jiejie

[imron]

Which pinyin rule is that? In pinyin, two third tones next to each other should always be written with third tones, even though they will be pronounced second-tone, third-tone. See for example http://www.pinyin.info/readings/zyg/rules.html#x4.11

[Jialihai Jiejie]

Obviously, someone has changed the rules again!?

My old school rules say that the 2nd third tone should always be marked with second tone, although its individual reading is third.

Jialihai Jiejie

[imron]

My old school rules say that the 2nd third tone should always be marked with second tone,

Are you sure it says that? Surely if anything, you would want mark the 1st third tone as a second tone and not the 2nd third tone, as it is only the 1st third tone that changes pronunciation?

[HashiriKata]

Obviously, someone has changed the rules again!?

My 100th birthday is coming in a few years time but I have not seen any change of this nature, so there must be a mistake somewhere .

Seriously, it would not be logical to mark the 3rd tone in a series as the 2nd, because the mutation is not fixed, but is dependent on the speed of delivery at the time of utterance. For example, something like 我也很想写给你。。。can give rise to a few variations depending on how one says it.

[Jialihai Jiejie]

Are you sure it says that? Surely if anything, you would want mark the 1st third tone as a second tone and not the 2nd third tone, as it is only the 1st third tone that changes pronunciation?

Apologies, Jialihai Jiejie had too much beer last night.

我也很想写给你

That's actually a very good analogy.

My version would probably be like this: 2-3-2-3-3-2-3

哈，来呀！快下注来买假厉害姐姐的真字啊！肯定包中！

[vampire]

很想写 can be 3--23 or 223 or 23--3 wow that's funny, I never thought about this:D