youreskimofriend Posted June 22, 2012 at 03:37 PM Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 at 03:37 PM Hi, yes, I know, this topic was covered extensively but I read everything and I still don't know how to ideally translate such a constuction. For example: 你寄出去的信 I would translate it just with "the letter you sent out" but then the 去 gets lost in translation, right? Or would it be better to actually say "the letter you went out for to send" or something like that? And is the 去 really necessary? Couldn't I just say 你出寄的信? Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
陳德聰 Posted June 22, 2012 at 05:08 PM Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 at 05:08 PM You're not the one 去-ing, the letter is. Side note: Is the "of" in "I'm fond of action films" really necessary? Couldn't I just say "I fond action films"? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youreskimofriend Posted June 22, 2012 at 05:36 PM Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 at 05:36 PM Thanks, now I get it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creamyhorror Posted June 22, 2012 at 05:55 PM Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 at 05:55 PM Is the "of" in "I'm fond of action films" really necessary? Couldn't I just say "I fond action films"? Is that really a fair comparison to make? To me it would be fairer to compare it to "The letter you sent" vs "The letter you sent out" Personally, I don't think 去 is necessary, and in fact I'd prefer to remove it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkhsu Posted June 22, 2012 at 06:02 PM Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 at 06:02 PM Personally, I don't think 去 is necessary, and in fact I'd prefer to remove it. Yeah, I agree. Just to clarify for the OP, in this case it would be "你寄出的信", not "你出寄的信". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youreskimofriend Posted June 22, 2012 at 06:13 PM Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 at 06:13 PM Thanks, I think I get it in this case. However I am still unsure about similar constructions e.g. 买回来 would be just "bought", right? Seems weird that so much gets lost. I found this in a dialogue. Please let me know if I translated correctly A: 拿出来让我看看 - take it out to/and let me see B: 你拿过那个箱子来 - (you) take/bring over that suitcase Thanks again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
陳德聰 Posted June 22, 2012 at 06:19 PM Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 at 06:19 PM @creamyhorror It's not so much a comparison as an assertion that the idea that something should/can be omitted just because it has no semantic content is misguided. The comparison only works if you, like the OP, thought that the 去 in Verb+出去 constructions has no semantic content. *Edit: though to be fair I deliberately put an ungrammatical sentence to mirror the 出寄 suggestion without thinking it could be a typo.* As for 寄出 vs 寄出去、yes it's cumbersome in this case but the question was about compound complements of direction in general, no? @youreskimofriend The translation of 买回来, like most translations, usually needs a bit of context. In this case, yeah it would probably just be "bought", but in the situation, whoever bought whatever it is is coming back to wherever their start point was. Though "bought and brought back" is probably more accurate, if the sentence is about people at home talking about their new microwave it would probably be easy enough to translate as "bought". A: good B: good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youreskimofriend Posted June 22, 2012 at 06:25 PM Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 at 06:25 PM That was all very helpful, thanks again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestTexas Posted June 23, 2012 at 03:21 AM Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 at 03:21 AM Is the "of" in "I'm fond of action films" really necessary? Couldn't I just say "I fond action films"? You must use 'of'. "I fond action films" is wrong because 'fond' is not a verb. You can say "I enjoy action films" "I like action films" etc, but not "I fond action films", because fond is an adjective. Hence, you get "I am fond of action films" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonymoose Posted June 23, 2012 at 03:56 AM Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 at 03:56 AM You must use 'of'. "I fond action films" is wrong because 'fond' is not a verb. You can say "I enjoy action films" "I like action films" etc, but not "I fond action films", because fond is an adjective. Hence, you get "I am fond of action films" So according to your reasoning, it is admissible to say "I think you every day" rather than "I think of you every day" because "think" is a verb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imron Posted June 23, 2012 at 04:19 AM Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 at 04:19 AM but then the 去 gets lost in translation, right? Not really. Translation isn't about translating every single word character by character into the other language. That generally results in an awkward and unnatural translation. If, as in this case, you are translating from Chinese to English, it's generally better to work at a sentence level and think 'what concept is this sentence trying to express, and how can I best express that concept in way that is natural for English speakers". Is the sentence going to have the exact same nuance and meaning as the original - well not really, because English is not Chinese, but the 去 isn't really lost and the concept is expressed in a natural way for people reading the translation. Please let me know if I translated correctly The first thing you should do in situations like this is look at the English translation and ask yourself if it reads naturally in English. That should be your first-pass litmus test. If the answer is no, then it is likely that your translation is not a very good one. The first one almost passes this test: take it out to/and let me see, although I don't really think 'to' would sound that good here, and would just leave it as 'take it out and let me see' The second one isn't as good: (you) take/bring over that suitcase take is the wrong verb here, and also in English the imperative form generally drops pronouns so the 'you' is not really needed either. I realise you probably bracketed it for this reason, but as mentioned already it's not really needed in the English so there's no need to leave it in just so you aren't 'losing' words from the original. Personally, I would translate the second sentence as 'bring that suitcase over here' however if you really didn't want to lose the 'you', then you might say something like: 'would you bring that suitcase over here'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestTexas Posted June 23, 2012 at 04:35 AM Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 at 04:35 AM So according to your reasoning, it is admissible to say "I think you every day" rather than "I think of you every day" because "think" is a verb. sometimes you can use 'think' with no preposition, for example "I think my explanation is reasonable". The point remains that 'fond' can't be used like that because it's not a verb. Some verbs can be used in said fashion, but adjectives can't. I never implied that all verbs do not need prepositions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creamyhorror Posted June 23, 2012 at 04:43 AM Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 at 04:43 AM So according to your reasoning, it is admissible to say "I think you every day" rather than "I think of you every day" because "think" is a verb. [not A => not B] does not necessarily mean [A => B]. He didn't say all verbs could be used in the form "I [verb] you every day". (Just repeating what WT said...) You must use 'of'. "I fond action films" is wrong because 'fond' is not a verb. You can say "I enjoy action films" "I like action films" etc, but not "I fond action films", because fond is an adjective. Hence, you get "I am fond of action films" It's quite clear 陳德聰 knows this, since he's obviously natively fluent in English. While he didn't state it outright, he was deliberately making a misstatement parallel to "And is the 去 really necessary? Couldn't I just say 你出寄的信?" for the sake of contrast. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonymoose Posted June 23, 2012 at 04:46 AM Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 at 04:46 AM The point remains that 'fond' can't be used like that because it's not a verb. Some verbs can be used in said fashion, but adjectives can't. OK, so what you really mean is that "fond" can't be used like that because it's an adjective, and not because it's not a verb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
semantic nuance Posted June 23, 2012 at 08:17 AM Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 at 08:17 AM 你拿过那个箱子来 Is it really frequently used in Mainland China? Honestly, I've never heard of that until now. We often say 你拿那個箱子過來 in Taiwan。(You bring that suitcase over here.) Perhaps, it's reginal. 你拿过那个箱子来 sounds to my ear to express in a context that 'you' have brought that suitcase over here before. For example: A:咦? 那箱子挺眼熟的! 啊! 我想起來了! 上個星期，你拿過那個箱子來(過)。 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imron Posted June 23, 2012 at 08:56 AM Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 at 08:56 AM It appears to be a dialogue from a textbook. I'm not a native speaker so I'm not really one to judge its correctness, but they definitely use it in that dialogue in the context of "bring that suitcase over here". Although now seeing the rest of the context, if I was translating it, I would probably translate it as "bring my suitcase over here". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skylee Posted June 23, 2012 at 09:32 AM Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 at 09:32 AM I agree with semantic nuance that 你拿过那个箱子来 sounds odd, and I also would say 你拿那個箱子過來. PS - also agree that 你拿过那个箱子来 tells people what has happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realmayo Posted June 23, 2012 at 01:39 PM Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 at 01:39 PM Not sure if this is helpful but when I started studying Chinese formally this was the one part of Chinese grammar I just simply couldn't deal with, and spent so long trying to work it out logically, looking for English equivalents, translating it back and forth, but still got nowhere trying to think it out. In the end, repeated exposure to Chinese meant that the usage just slotted into place as a natural and normal function of one particular language. There's no reason this type of grammar makes sense other than within the context of the language it falls within. Sometimes I think if I'd have just memorised lots of phrases that use this grammar (bring me the book, he came down the mountain, etc etc etc etc) then I would have got comfortable with it a lot quicker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creamyhorror Posted June 23, 2012 at 02:37 PM Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 at 02:37 PM It appears to be a dialogue from a textbook. I looked at the first dialogue on the page and saw: 投进下边的邮筒里去吧。 Here 下边 means "downstairs", but that sounds wrong to me. Would you folks say 楼下 like I would? The second dialogue has another example of the structure that semantic nuance noticed: 你看，爸爸给你买回什么来了？ This one seems a bit less odd since 买回 exists as a verb on its own ("buyback/repurchase"), but in this context I feel it should be 买...回来 since he's buying and bringing it home (and not repurchasing it). Well, just more interesting usages to note I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
semantic nuance Posted June 23, 2012 at 04:03 PM Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 at 04:03 PM Here 下边 means "downstairs", but that sounds wrong to me. Would you folks say 楼下 like I would? Yes, I would say 樓下. If the context is clear, 下面 or 下邊 is also ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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