Anti Japan protests in your town? 钓鱼岛

[realmayo]

Does anyone think this is a dangerous game for the Chinese leadership to be playing, if indeed they are fanning these particular flames? I think about the economy: they ramped it up super-hot because they figured they'd be able to turn down the temperature when they needed to, and it looks like that might have been a mistake, that perhaps they can't take the steps to cool things down, causing even worse economic pain than is necessary. And for the protests: won't the Chinese leadership look weak if either (a) the protests get out of hand, the government tells people to stop protesting, but they keep protesting; or (b) people want to see action by China to regain control of the islands, but China is shown unable to actually do nothing, despite the rhetoric.

If these islands made up the only territorial flashpoint then maybe the US would put a bit of pressure on Japan to come up with some mutually acceptable compromise. But China is banging the drum over islands and territory down in the south too: this is 100% fantastic for the US because it is pushing China's scared neighbours into the warm embrace of the USA and her navy. Would US-Vietnam relations be as good as they are now if China hadn't been these pushing claims? If Japan, such a long-standing ally of the US, gave in to any of these Chinese demands then Vietnam, the Philippines etc might question their wisdom in choosing the US over China. But if Japan stands firm, backed up by the US, that's bound to play well in Hanoi and Manilla.

[Steingletscher]

They aren't just protesting against Japan but also America. There were thousands of people outside of the US consulate here in Chengdu. But it is not anything is really going to change as Japan and America as military allies (and have been for more then half a century), and neither China nor the US want to go to war, especially over such a small thing as these islands. I agree with realmayo above. As for the South China Sea issue is, the US says its reasons for being very involved in it are to keep the world's busiest shipping lanes open as international waters and not let any one country (especially one whom they don't see as being very trustworthy) being able to control them.

I got into a debate with a friend of mine who has a degree in maritime law from a Chinese university a month ago, and she said first that it is Chinese territory. When I questioned her further, citing the fact that the Japanese annexed it during the first Sino-Japanese war and then incorporated it into Okinawa; the deals with the US regarding ownership of the islands; and finally that even though Formosa (where it was administered under when it was still Chinese territory) was given back to China after WWII, Taiwan (the Republic of China) controls Formosa and thus if the Senkaku islands were cited as being included as part of formosa, they should thus be given to ROC (which the People's Republic would never allow), she couldn't really answer. All she said was that the documents should be examined very carefully. Anyways, the complexity of the issue makes any protest just pointless. Assuming that the Japanese did specify the islands as part of Formosa and thus should have been given back to Taiwan, it makes me wonder how much law (especially international law) matters in this case where it contradicts the reality of military control.

[liuzhou]

Almost certainly every single one will have heard of them.

I'm not convinced. Yes, the issue has been festering away for decades. That doesn't mean the 19-20 year old students in the demos had heard of them until last week.

Not one I asked had any idea where they were or why they were being claimed by both Japan and Taiwan (not the mainland - although few people realise that).

But it is not anything is really going to change as Japan and America as military allies (and have been for more then half a decade)

I think you might mean 'century 'rather than 'decade'. More than half a decade could be as little as six years.

when the topic first surfaced a month ago

The topic arose about 40 years ago

[carlo]

Since it’s Chinese forums my attention is drawn to the banner photographed in the China Daily article,

万里长城十亿兵越马扬刀入东京

杀尽日寇美国佬坚决收回钓鱼岛

“One billion soldiers by the Great Wall, spear in hands, leap into Tokyo

Let them kill all the Japs and the Yanks, and get our islands back.”

It’s an interesting choice of background for a China Daily article, hope it wasn’t the most, uh, “nonviolent” banner they could find. It suggests that the US of A is never too far away in people's minds, and how things could escalate pretty badly in an election year. Now, letting Ishihara take over Japan’s foreign policy is really asking for it. IIRC this is the guy who once said that (Japanese) women whose ovaries have stopped functioning don’t deserve to live, or something of the sort.

[Steingletscher]

when the topic first surfaced a month ago

The topic arose about 40 years ago

Sorry for the misleading wording, I meant that it first surfaced since I've been in the country. I've changed both of your points.

Anyways, one of the funniest things I've seen this weekend was that the gay bar I ended up at had a sign in Chinese and English that said "No Japanese allowed" and inside everyone was really nice and friendly in a way that completely contradicted the mentality that is usually suggested by a sign of that sort.

[liuzhou]

Anyways, one of the funniest things I've seen this weekend was that the gay bar I ended up at had a sign in Chinese and English that said "No Japanese allowed" and inside everyone was really nice and friendly in a way that completely contradicted the mentality that is usually suggested by a sign of that sort.

I'm struggling to find anything funny about that at all.

[Hofmann]

Yesterday some stuff apparently went down at the Utah State Capitol. The organizer(s) tried to get me and my posse (an Asian-American civil rights organization) to join in. Not to mention their lack of critical thinking skills for doing this in the first place, doing this in the US is really counterproductive.

And they claimed to represent all Chinese Americans. Way to pick a fight.

[tokyo_girl]

I agree completely that Ishihara bears much of the responsibility for the flare up.

But I am shocked by the violence of the protests.

I lived in China in 1999 when the US bombed the Chinese embassy in Serbia / Yugoslavia.

There were huge protests, but they were very orderly.

But ramping up the rhetoric when there are already violent protests happening ;...

It's interesting that the agenda included the US as well.

It'll be interesting to see if it broadens into domestic issues.

Like most protests it seems to be young men - I can't help wonder to what extent the gender imbalance feeds into that....

I worry for my Chinese classmates who are returning to China in two weeks after being in Japan, that they will be tarred with a brush of disloyalty. It's not beyond possibility.

I hope calm heads can prevail on both sides, but I don't see a lot of cause for optimism.

It should be settled by an international court.

[imron]

and inside everyone was really nice and friendly in a way that completely contradicted the mentality that is usually suggested by a sign of that sort

Racists can be the nicest people when you don't belong to the race they are against Were there any Japanese there (despite the sign) that felt the same way?

It should be settled by an international court.

I don't think that would make the situation any different, and possibly worse if the decision went against China.

[tokyo_girl]

Since it’s Chinese forums my attention is drawn to the banner photographed in the China Daily article,

Thanks for posting this Carlo. It gives the appearance that the rhetoric that is sanctioned in Chinese is more inflammatory than it is in English.

万里长城十亿兵越马扬刀入东京

杀尽日寇美国佬坚决收回钓鱼岛

“One billion soldiers by the Great Wall, spear in hands, leap into Tokyo

Let them kill all the Japs and the Yanks, and get our islands back.

Fortunately there don't seem to be any retaliatory violent attacks on Chinese shops here in Tokyo... and hopefully it will stay that way.

[abcdefg]

Loud marches, mostly students, in Kunming. Waving banners and shouting slogans. Snarled traffic yesterday (Saturday) but they were less visible today. I didn't see property damage.

One of my best friends here is a policeman, fairly high up. He was working plainclothes helping keep things in check. Called and told me which city busses not to take (blocked routes) and to generally maintain my distance from the mobs, to just not get involved. Was glad to have him as an ally and mentor. He told me, off the record, that central government was not discouraging these demonstrations, and his instructions were just to keep them contained, not to strive for extinction.

[count_zero]

>> Does anyone think this is a dangerous game for the Chinese leadership to be playing, if indeed they are fanning these particular flames? ... And for the protests: won't the Chinese leadership look weak if either (a) the protests get out of hand, the government tells people to stop protesting, but they keep protesting; or (b) people want to see action by China to regain control of the islands, but China is shown unable to actually do nothing, despite the rhetoric.

The protests have of course, to some extent, been organized by the government. Workers have been giving a day off to protest, police have controlled the mobs into certain areas. But I think you are right that these young, dumb and girlfriendless youths actually want more than to shout and swear on the streets a bit more than usual. What can China do? Send some more war boats then bring them back. Wait a few days, send some more then bring them back. Hope that something happens so they can say "we are the victim!" but that doesn't actually get them the islands. Some Chinese people have the attitude "China is strong now!" with the inference that now people have to start speaking Chinese, giving China what it wants etc. Doesn't really work that way. China's long-standing tactic of bully, cry, bully, cry has actually worked quite well in international politics but there's a limit to that trick.

I don't think anyone in the government is stupid enough to know that what these protesters are really angry about is their own shitty lives so the prospect of nationalistic rioters turning on them for a lack of action and the socially wronged joining in is absolutely a possibility. Banners calling for democracy and social reform have been showing up in the crowds. Police have been gang beating protesters already - though that's what police do so perhaps we can't draw any conclusions from that.

[count_zero]

Another key point is the rioting has OBVIOUSLY been orchestrated by the government with a specific timing in mind - to draw attention away from the upcoming transition in the world's largest criminal organisation. Can you imagine the conversation that must have taken place?

A: How can we draw attention away from domestic issues for a while?

B: Well, obviously blame foreigners for something, but who?

A: Thinking out of the box here! What about Japan?

B: Right. Don't overthink it. And make up some BS that America is partly to blame too.

A: Great. Break early for sushi?

But they will want to tamp down public protests pretty darn quickly so they don't spoil their own party.

[tokyo_girl]

He told me, off the record, that central government was not discouraging these demonstrations, and his instructions were just to keep them contained, not to strive for extinction.

That seems quite clear. If they were Falun Gong protest, I am sure the will to extinguish them would be there.

[chaiknees]

Yesterday a taxi driver lifts his little finger and says "The Japanese are a little insect, China is so big and should crush it", clenching his fist. But the government is too 弱 and does not move. Well, that’s the driver’s opinion.

What makes me feel more worried: To see so many students in these protests. They use force, smash windows of Japanese shops, destroy Japanese cars, lift banners with racist slogans, call the Japanese dogs, pigs and devils…

Is that China’s future educational elite? It is shocking to see so many young people, obviously brainwashed, obedient, receptive to made-up farces, violent and overly-nationalistic. China, quo vadis?

[WestTexas]

No protests out here! It's times like this when I'm glad I live in a small farming town.

Is that China’s future educational elite?

No, the educational elite go to school in the US, Canada, or Britain.

[realmayo]

What makes me feel more worried: To see so many students in these protests

Again, is this a genie that Beijing wants to let out of the bottle? It's normally students who provide the manpower for revolutions. Not least the Great Cultural one.

[Kenny同志]

Well, I am probably the only Mainlander to participate in this sensitive discussion.

To be clear, I have never liked the weak, corrupt government. While it might be taking advantage of the territorial dispute and Chinese people’s patriotism to divert attention from many of its own problems, I don’t think it is valid to say all of the demonstrators are brainwashed on this matter (brainwash is to make people believe something that is untrue); and if they are, those demonstrators in the United States, Germany, and Hong Kong etc. would be largely brainwashed by the Western media.

How can the Diaoyu Islands be a dispute? I wonder. To me, the whole issue can’t be simpler. Ask both China and Japan to provide historical records. Who has the oldest official records saying the Islands belong to it would be the rightful owner. China has (videos from Xinhua and Shangdong Online Radio & TV: video 1, video 2).

Unfortunately, territorial disputes are often not solved through law or justice, but war. So I suspect the ongoing protests can do little more than changing the direction of the spotlight.

Certainly, they are worrying due to the risk of them getting out of hand. What is more worrying, however, are Japan’s right-wing forces, who will turn to be an unimaginable nightmare to the world, especially China and the rest of Asia, once they take power. To understand this, some of you may need to know what the Japanese army did in the Second World War. The Rape of Nanking, which was authored by Iris Chang, might help. You are advised to exercise caution through the book as the atrocities committed by the Japanese army were appalling. As a bonus, you may figure out why Chinese hate Japan so much after finishing the book.

PS: The first part of this speech which was delivered by a headmaster at an assembly might help you understand the hatred too (the video is from sina.com).

Pictures of Japanese army killing Chinese civilians.

(Warning: These pictures are extremely graphic. Please use caution)

[yang zhao]

there isn't any sign of protest in my city. but my japanese classmate isn't coming class these days. i asked him why, i'm afraid of attacked because of these subject , he said. i'm pretty sorry for him. i wish these things end immediately

[liuzhou]

brainwash is to make people believe something that is untrue

Not necessarily.

Who has the oldest official records saying the Islands belong to it would be the rightful owner.

That argument wouldn't last ten seconds in any court of law. In fact the newest documents would be more decisive.

But do you seriously think that either country would care about these uninhabited, uninhabitable islands if it wasn't for the same old excuse for everything nasty - oil. It is nothing to do with nationalism or fishing. Oil. Oil. Oil. Got to keep your Ferrari moving.