Taiwan-ji

[pazu]

It's a new way of writing Chinese, or more precisely, the Taiwanji (or Taioanji) is designed to write Taiyu (Taiwanese). I think the system is quite weired and can be difficult to be recognizable (the tonal sign is just too small), but maybe you will find this interesting:

http://www.taioanji.com/

[Guest Anonymous]

I suppose I can understand how these hard-core Taiwanese independence supporters feel. I know I probably won't be too happy if there isn't an adequate writing system for my spoken language. But then again, these hard-core Taiwanese independence supporters were brought up faslely believing they are Taiwanren and not Zhongguoren. I feel fortunate that although I was born in Taiwan, I was raised with a sense of Chinese identity.

With that said, I must applaud the effort to develop a brand new writing system for a spoken regionalect that has been around for hundreds, if not thousands of years.

At the first glance, this writing system reminds me of Korean Hangul. However, it doesn't resemble or even look similiar to Chinese characters as Hangul does. It looks more like an alien written language you'd see on Star Trek. But that's just my opinion. However, I am glad that these TI supporters are trying to create a non-Roman based writing system.

I wonder what do native-Taiyu speakers think about this Taioanji.

[Tsunku]

Wow, I agree, the script does look a little wierd and futuristic.

I'm also curious how Taiyu speakers feel about this. Is there a wide consensus that a new script is needed? Is this script the only one of its kind so far?

[niubi]

i have a hard time even saying the word taiyu. its minnan hua. if i do say taiyu, it is usually always with suowei de preceding it.

[smithsgj]

Niubi that's twice you've said that without explaining yourself. wtf is the problem with this word? It is used by the citizens of a de facto independent nation to refer to one of the principal languages spoken in their country (pace Kulong (I should be so lucky)).

Do you object because "taiyu" should properly refer to the aboriginal languages of Taiwan, or because it excludes Hakka from the equation, or what?

[skylee]

I completely agree with Kulong.

I wanted to say that an invented script had no future. But then I remembered Hangul. Then I thought maybe this script has some chances.

A de facto independent nation? I don't live in Taiwan, I don't speak Taiyu, I am not in a position to comment on this. I just don't like the idea.

[smithsgj]

Skylee what do you mean you don't like the idea? It isn't an idea, not even a political view, it's a statement of fact. Nobody on this forum with access to international media seriously disputes Taiwan's status as a "de facto independent nation", surely?

[skylee]

Oh I didn't know. I thought it was an idea.

[Guest jekor]

What's the problem here? Although it's arguable whether or not Taiwanese is a language or a dialect (as with Cantonese), don't the speakers have a right to name it whatever they want?

Putting aside political questions of "formal independence", why is "being Taiwanese" a false belief? Who determines this? The people not living in Taiwan? That's just nationalist ideology.

How about just letting people who are engaging in a peaceful pursuit—such as creating a writing system—do so? If the writing system fails, no big deal. If it succeeds, then there was obviously a need for it.

[PollyWaffle]

Own currency, own passports, own government... If a language is a dialect with the critical number of bilateral agreements with Amerikkka, then 'taiyu' is accurate... On the other hand, if blind self-denial of the absolute obvious is in order, then of course 'minnan hua' is appropriate... However, if it walks like a duck & talks like a duck, then it is probably a cow's vag...........

Either way, it is all semantics...

[pazu]

Oh this is going to be a political thread.

OKay, Niubi, I usually refer to the Taiwanese Minnanhua as Taiyu, it's easy to say like this, the Taiwanese Minnanhua and the Amoyan Minnanhua should be quite different, as far as I know.

And just like I sometimes refer to the Cantonese (which is my native tongue) as Xiangganghua, and even in mainland China I found some textbooks for learning "Xiangganghua".

For Skylee, I don't like the idea of having an independent Taiwan, but it's indeed, a de facto independent nation, no matter what Beijing said on it.

For PollyWaffle, Hong Kong has his own currency, own passport, own rights to participate in the Olympics, own rights to join the WTO,,, and presumably, own government, too. (okay, the last point is open for discussion.)

[Guest Anonymous]

OKay, Niubi, I usually refer to the Taiwanese Minnanhua as Taiyu, it's easy to say like this, the Taiwanese Minnanhua and the Amoyan Minnanhua should be quite different, as far as I know.

In Taiwan, both Taiyu and Minnanhua are used to refer to the same regionalect. I'm assuming that someone from Fujian can communicate with a Taiyu speaker from Taiwan although differences are to be expected. However, as far as I know, the Min dialect has the most variaties out of all the six main Southern dialect groups, there's the Minbei, Minnan and another. Why can't Taiyu be a branch of the Min dialect? I'm sure it's different enough.

And just like I sometimes refer to the Cantonese (which is my native tongue) as Xiangganghua, and even in mainland China I found some textbooks for learning "Xiangganghua".

Correct. The way I see it, it goes like this:

Hanyu -> Guangdonghua -> Xiangganghua/Guangzhouhua... etc.

The same with Taiyu

Hanyu -> Min -> Minnan -> Taiyu

For Skylee, I don't like the idea of having an independent Taiwan, but it's indeed, a de facto independent nation, no matter what Beijing said on it.

There's no independent Taiwan. There's an independent Republic of China on the island of Taiwan and then there's the People's Republic of China on the mainland. The "One-China" policy that U.S. adopted is just silly. The One China policy is one of the main reasons why people call Repulic of China Taiwan instead of its formal name because "there can't be two Chinas". This policy also fuels those TI supporters. Although these TI extremists and the current DPP government is trying to change the formal name to the Repulic of Taiwan, it hasn't been done yet. Until then, there is the Republic of China.

[Quest]

the fact that one lives in a house doesn't mean he owns the house. of course, if there are no other claimants of ownership, then yea he might as well take it and say it is his. however, if there are other rightful claimants, then the issue should be settled through dialogue. unilateral declaration of ownership is not going to make anyone happy.

there's no right or wrong in the taiwan question, but all parties should respect the interests and concerns of the other parties. that's why they should talk about it thru dialogues. Any side that does something unilaterally to change the status quo is bound to create troubles.

if this gets too politically sensitive, feel free to delete my post

[Guest Anonymous]

the fact that one lives in a house doesn't mean he owns the house. of course' date=' if there are no other claimants of ownership, then yea he might as well take it and say it is his. however, if there are other rightful claimants, then the issue should be settled through dialogue. unilateral declaration of ownership is not going to make anyone happy.

there's no right or wrong in the taiwan question, but all parties should respect the interests and concerns of the other parties. that's why they should talk about it thru dialogues. Any side that does something unilaterally to change the status quo is bound to create troubles.[/quote']

I agree. However, I was merely pointing out some facts in my previous post.

[roddy]

if this gets too politically sensitive, feel free to delete my post

Not yet, not yet . . .

Roddy

[skylee]

There's no independent Taiwan. There's an independent Republic of China on the island of Taiwan and then there's the People's Republic of China on the mainland.

Right.

[smithsgj]

Oh Kulong 拜托

"Although these TI extremists and the current DPP government is trying to change the formal name to the Repulic of Taiwan, it hasn't been done yet. Until then, there is the Republic of China"

I did say de facto, didn't I? The government in Taipei controls the island of Taiwan, rightly or wrongly, and that's all there is to it.

And anyway folks why do you have to be an independent nation to be allowed to have a language name? Flemish, Provencal, Cornish, Fujianese, Cantonese: none of these are named after countries!

The problem with the term Taiyu in Taiwan is that it implies that non-speakers (4 million (?) Hakkanese, plus waishengren, native Taiwanese) are in some way less than Taiwanese (though Americans, Australians and Scots seem to have no problem with the term "English" for their language). But still everyone uses "Taiyu". I've never heard the term Minnanhua used at all except in this sort of discussion. How do you say the word Minnanhua in English? No-one's got a bloody clue because no-one ever uses it! Oh yes, I remember, it's called Hokkien...

Oh yeah Taiwanese is different from the mainland version because it's peppered with Japanese expressions. That's because before it came to rule itself Taiwan was part of Japan. And before that... oh never mind.

[Guest Anonymous]

Oh Kulong 拜托

"Although these TI extremists and the current DPP government is trying to change the formal name to the Repulic of Taiwan' date=' it hasn't been done yet. Until then, there is the Republic of China"

I did say de facto, didn't I? The government in Taipei controls the island of Taiwan, rightly or wrongly, and that's all there is to it.[/quote']

No one argued that the government in Taibei isn't an independent government. I was merely trying to set things straight and point out that there isn't a Republic of Taiwan yet. Sorry to disappoint you if you are a TI supporter.

And anyway folks why do you have to be an independent nation to be allowed to have a language name? Flemish, Provencal, Cornish, Fujianese, Cantonese: none of these are named after countries!

You don't have to be an independent nation to be allowed to have a language name. I can say I speak American instead of English because obviously, American English is quite different than British English, not only the differences in accent but more importantly, vocabulary. Heck, I can say I speak Texan and not English since we always get make fun of for speaking differently down here in the South anyway ;-)

The problem with the term Taiyu in Taiwan is that it implies that non-speakers (4 million (?) Hakkanese, plus waishengren, native Taiwanese) are in some way less than Taiwanese (though Americans, Australians and Scots seem to have no problem with the term "English" for their language).

Ha! Why would non-Taiwanese speakers feel less than Taiwanese speakers? I speak Mandarin and I know I certainly don't feel any less than Taiwanese speakers.

Although I personally could care less what you call the damn regionalect, I can assume why some people are bothered by the term Taiyu. It implies that Taiwanese is as official a language as Mandarin therefore Taiwan should be "independent" meaning there should be a Republic of Taiwan. This whole thing was probably started by TI supporters anyway.

Oh yeah Taiwanese is different from the mainland version because it's peppered with Japanese expressions. That's because before it came to rule itself Taiwan was part of Japan. And before that... oh never mind.

Before that Taiwan was again, part of China. And even before that, Taiwan was populated by the aboriginies. Just for your information, China didn't willingly give up Taiwan to the Japanese just as they didn't willingly give up Hong Kong and Macau to England and Puertugal. China was weak during the late Qing Dynasty and was bullied by the Europeans, Americans, and Japanese.

[smithsgj]

an unusual definition - or the standard TI take?

http://www.wufi.org.tw/taibun.htm

NB esp:

我們認為台語包括：原住民各語系、客家話、福佬話、新移民的語言等。

福佬話, presumably, is Fujianese/Taiwanese/Southern Minnish or whatever.

The problem with using 台語 to mean ONLY 福佬話, from a (say) Hakka perspective, is that it implies that Hakka is not a Taiwanese national language, and that detracts from the Taiwaneseness of a Hakka person.

I can see their point.

The problem with the term 台語 from the mainland government or "da zhongguo zhuyi" perspective is as described by Kulong, I suppose: if it's being used to describe all the languages of Taiwan, it contributes to an assertion of nationhood or independence.

But if it's used to refer to just the one regionalect (as in practice it always is, except by the political activists that wrote that web page), then I think the Beijing lot are being ridiculously oversensitive, as lots of other regionalects are named after non-renegade provinces.

[Guest Anonymous]

The problem with the term 台語 from the mainland government or "da zhongguo zhuyi" perspective is as described by Kulong, I suppose: if it's being used to describe all the languages of Taiwan, it contributes to an assertion of nationhood or independence.

While I do believe that the only way for China and the Chinese people to be strong is to be united. However, that doesn't mean I support the communist government nor am I even from the mainland.

I know it's real easy and comforting for TI supporters to automatically label anyone who support reunification a "commie" but that's just simply isn't true. Even in Taiwan, there are many people who support reunification, not to mention a great majority of oversea Chinese who came from different places such as Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau, and even mainland China before 1949.

Also, I even mentioned before I could care less what you call the Taiwanese version of Minnanhua. However, now that you mentioned it, I would be opposed to the term "Taiyu" used to fuel TI sentiments and other political purposes.