smithsgj Posted November 21, 2003 at 07:17 AM Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 at 07:17 AM "the only way for China and the Chinese people to be strong is to be united" That's what I meant by "da zhongguo zhuyi" I suppose. Nothing wrong with the PRC being strong: but Taiwan and Texas aren't in the PRC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 21, 2003 at 05:24 PM Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 at 05:24 PM "the only way for China and the Chinese people to be strong is to be united"That's what I meant by "da zhongguo zhuyi" I suppose. Nothing wrong with the PRC being strong: but Taiwan and Texas aren't in the PRC. Who said anything about making the PRC strong? The word "China" in this context doesn't equal to the communist nation of the People's Republic of China. Why can't you get that through your head? Why must you keep labelling people who wish to see China rise back up as a world power as "commies"? This is a typical practice of those who are anti-China and/or TI extremists. You're right, Taiwan isn't in the PRC. I don't even know why you brought up Texas. Who said Taiwan is part of the PRC anyway? I know I didn't. Reunification doesn't necessarily mean ROC will be absorbed by the PRC. Open up your mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roddy Posted November 21, 2003 at 05:35 PM Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 at 05:35 PM Why can't you get that through your head? That's not very polite. Roddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 21, 2003 at 05:39 PM Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 at 05:39 PM Why can't you get that through your head? That's not very polite. Roddy If you've read smithsgj's posts, either in this thread or others, you would notice that he's trying to equate Chinese reunification supporters to PRC communist supporters, which is completely false. I also take great offense to his false assumption because there are a great number of us who aren't from the PRC or support the communist government but wish to see an united China. It's not so much political but cultural idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsunku Posted November 21, 2003 at 07:50 PM Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 at 07:50 PM I also don't think that supporting the unification of Taiwan with China means supporting bringing Taiwan under Communist rule. I was talking with a Chinese friend (a Kunming guy) yesterday about Taiwan and he told me he believed the majority of Taiwanese are patriots. What he meant was that there are Taiwanese who are still proud of China's history and culture, and who still consider themselves "Chinese." It would seem natural that those people would want to see Taiwan and China come together, although maybe not under the present circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 21, 2003 at 08:00 PM Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 at 08:00 PM I also don't think that supporting the unification of Taiwan with China means supporting bringing Taiwan under Communist rule. I was talking with a Chinese friend (a Kunming guy) yesterday about Taiwan and he told me he believed the majority of Taiwanese are patriots. What he meant was that there are Taiwanese who are still proud of China's history and culture, and who still consider themselves "Chinese." It would seem natural that those people would want to see Taiwan and China come together, although maybe not under the present circumstances. Exactly! I, myself, was born in Taiwan and lived there for 10 years. I do not wish to see Taiwan, the Republic of China, absorbed by the PRC, nor do I necessarily wish to see the Nationalist govern the whole China again. I believe a new democratic government would be the best compromise for both sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skylee Posted November 22, 2003 at 02:53 AM Report Share Posted November 22, 2003 at 02:53 AM If you've read smithsgj's posts' date=' either in this thread or others, you would notice that he's trying to equate Chinese reunification supporters to PRC communist supporters, which is completely false.I also take great offense to his false assumption because there are a great number of us who aren't from the PRC or support the communist government but wish to see an united China. It's not so much political but cultural idea.[/quote'] Kulong you have my support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smithsgj Posted November 24, 2003 at 04:47 AM Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 at 04:47 AM kulong wrote: "If you've read smithsgj's posts, either in this thread or others, you would notice that he's trying to equate Chinese reunification supporters to PRC communist supporters, which is completely false." Can you find a quote from one of my posts that supports that allegation please? Recognizing that this is not a political thread, but one about Taiwanese script, I've tried to play down my views on China-Taiwan reunification. I don't want to make enemies with people in these forums, because I think we have some interesting linguistic discussions here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 24, 2003 at 05:35 AM Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 at 05:35 AM kulong wrote: "If you've read smithsgj's posts' date=' either in this thread or others, you would notice that he's trying to equate Chinese reunification supporters to PRC communist supporters, which is completely false." Can you find a quote from one of my posts that supports that allegation please?[/quote'] You want evidence? "the only way for China and the Chinese people to be strong is to be united" That's what I meant by "da zhongguo zhuyi" I suppose. Nothing wrong with the PRC being strong: but Taiwan and Texas aren't in the PRC. Recognizing that this is not a political thread' date=' but one about Taiwanese script, I've tried to play down my views on China-Taiwan reunification.[/quote']I applaud your attitude but... nice try... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smithsgj Posted November 25, 2003 at 02:08 AM Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 at 02:08 AM I see that for you the term PRC is politically loaded. But I intended it to cover the territory and people under the jurisdiction of the (totalitarian) Beijing government. If that territory could be governed by some other means (ideally, democratic means) then so much the better, of course. I wanted to show that for me China and that territory are one and the same, and that I disagree with those who hold that China stands for something greater. If we have no better adjective than "Chinese" to represent the culture and ethnicity of the Chinese diaspora, then so be it, but that's no reason for a bunch of people living under different jurisdictions to get all nationalistic. In fact, I think that for them to do so borders on racism: they want a nation for what they perceive to be a different race! This is usually only acceptable when the race is otherwise subject to persecution. I belong to a culture which could be labelled "Western" and an ethnicity which could be labelled (but why?) "White"; but like most peace-loving people, I have no interest in building a vast White or Western "nation". Some misguided leaders may, of course, have other ideas. There you are, Kulong, living in Texas, quite happy to live your life according to the laws and practices of the United States and Texas? And ditto the Taiwanese, so just let them have their country and live in it. Or let them vote (they have a vote!) to change things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 25, 2003 at 03:07 AM Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 at 03:07 AM I see that for you the term PRC is politically loaded. PRC = People's Republic of China, the formal name used by the Chinese government in Beijing. How can this *NOT* be political? When people like me who support a united China we refer to “中國”(Zhongguo) and not 中華人民共和國 (Zhonghua Renmin Gongheguo) or 中華民國 (Zhonghua Minguo). I sincerely hope you understand the difference. But I intended it to cover the territory and people under the jurisdiction of the (totalitarian) Beijing government. If that territory could be governed by some other means (ideally, democratic means) then so much the better, of course. This is off-topic but still needs to be said. I am by no means in favor of a "totalitarian" government over a democratic one. However, do you honestly believe that China as a society would remain stable and prosperous if the Chinese government turned democratic over night? In other words, do you really believe China is ready for democracy? I'm not sure how familiar you are with recent Chinese history (in the past 200 years or so) but if you are indeed fluent, you'd understand why China isn't ready for democracy, or any major change in the government just yet. I wanted to show that for me China and that territory are one and the same, and that I disagree with those who hold that China stands for something greater. If we have no better adjective than "Chinese" to represent the culture and ethnicity of the Chinese diaspora, then so be it, but that's no reason for a bunch of people living under different jurisdictions to get all nationalistic. Like I said earlier, there's a great difference between “中國” and not 中華人民共和國 or 中華民國. You need to understand something. In Chinese history, no matter which dynasty it was understand, it has always been 中國. This created a 中國人 (Zhongguoren) identity that goes beyond political boundaries. I hope you're open-minded enough to see that. Besides, who are you to tell people not to be proud of their ethnicity and wish for a better future for their people and 祖國 (zuguo)? In fact, I think that for them to do so borders on racism: they want a nation for what they perceive to be a different race! This is usually only acceptable when the race is otherwise subject to persecution. How is this even remotely related to racism? Who said that 中國人 is a race? I've already explained the 中國人 identity and it seems like you truly don't understand it since you're calling us racists. I belong to a culture which could be labelled "Western" and an ethnicity which could be labelled (but why?) "White"; but like most peace-loving people, I have no interest in building a vast White or Western "nation". Some misguided leaders may, of course, have other ideas. You're quite misled. No one ever said for China to take over the whole Asia. We don't want Korea, Japan, Vietnam or any other Asian countries. We just want 中國 to be united. There you are, Kulong, living in Texas, quite happy to live your life according to the laws and practices of the United States and Texas? And ditto the Taiwanese, so just let them have their country and live in it. Or let them vote (they have a vote!) to change things. The United States and Texas isn't the heaven you make it seem to be. Do you honestly think there are no corruptions and injustice in the good old U.S. of A? Again, I am native to Taipei, Taiwan and lived there until I was 10 years old. You try to make it seem like I'm a "Commie" again by makgin it seem like I'm not "Taiwanese". You still don't seem to grasp the concept that those who support a united China don't necessarily support the communist government. It's a cultural issue, not political. Seriously, stop faslely accusing us of supporting the communist government when we (at least me) clearly don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smithsgj Posted November 25, 2003 at 03:42 AM Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 at 03:42 AM PRC: yes I know what it stands for thank you. If I want to refer to the territory and people within its boundaries then how am I supposed to refer to them? China? You would say that's inaccurate because China includes Taiwan. Mainland China? *I* say that's inaccurate because it implies that there's a non-mainland China, ie Taiwan! So I thought PRC would be nicely neutral. "I've already explained the 中國人 identity and it seems like you truly don't understand it since you're calling us racists" What I said was that nationalism on the grounds of race borders on racism except where there's been persecution. But you're right. I don't understand the 中國人 identity. I don't understand why there has to be one, why I as a non-中國人 don't have a special "identity" label, or what it's supposed to mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 25, 2003 at 03:54 AM Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 at 03:54 AM PRC: yes I know what it stands for thank you. If I want to refer to the territory and people within its boundaries then how am I supposed to refer to them? China? You would say that's inaccurate because China includes Taiwan. Mainland China? *I* say that's inaccurate because it implies that there's a non-mainland China, ie Taiwan! See, you still don't understand. When I said we wish to see China to be united and strong, we're not just talking about the people of mainland China. We're talking about Chinese everywhere, and yes, including Taiwan. There *IS* a non-mainland China and it's the Republic of China on Taiwan. Keep in mind that the DPP and TI supporters haven't changed the formal name to the Republic of Taiwan yet, if ever. "I've already explained the 中國人 identity and it seems like you truly don't understand it since you're calling us racists"What I said was that nationalism on the grounds of race borders on racism except where there's been persecution. "Nationalism on the grounds of race"? Again, who said that 中國人 is a race? Nationalism on the grounds of race would be a nation of *ALL* Mongoloids which would include Japan, Korea, and other Asian countries. But you're right. I don't understand the 中國人 identity. I don't understand why there has to be one, why I as a non-中國人 don't have a special "identity" label, or what it's supposed to mean. Why does there have to be a 中國人 identity? Why does there have to be anything? It just exists because it's part of a culture that's lasted for over 4,000 years. Just because it's something you don't understand or don't have should it not exist? You don't have a "special identity label" because you come from a different part of the world, a different culture, and a different society. Judging from your point of view, the modern day Chinese would be a completely different people from all the Chinese from previous dynasties because they had a different name, Qin, Han, Tang, Song, Yuan, Ming, Qing, and not to mention all the smaller "nations" from time periods such as 春秋 (Chunqiu) or 三國 (San Guo). An identity is much more than just a label (name) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quest Posted November 25, 2003 at 06:58 AM Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 at 06:58 AM well said kulong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quest Posted November 25, 2003 at 07:15 AM Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 at 07:15 AM Like East/West Germany, North/South Korea, do you think they should remain divided forever? China and Taiwan are in the same situation, the only difference is, Taiwan is a lot smaller than her sister on the mainland. I dont know where you are from, smith, but ethnicity certainly exists in old world cultures. it's an identity, not racism. China (中国）to us means 中华民族，华夏文明，Chinese (中国人）to us means 炎黄子孙. it's a lot greater than PRC. We are proud of our identity, and at the same time we also respect and appreciate other cultures and ethnicities. it's not racism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roddy Posted November 25, 2003 at 07:19 AM Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 at 07:19 AM Could I suggest further discussion goes into the current 'national identity' topic here - I think we're in danger of repeating ourselves. Roddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quest Posted November 25, 2003 at 07:45 AM Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 at 07:45 AM Also, if you didn't know, Smith. The Taiwan government's official map of her "country" includes Mainland China Proper + Taiwan + Mongolia, because at the beginning of last century, all three places were parts of China. Taiwan and the Mainland split amid the civil war in the 1940s, because the Nationalist forces retreated to Taiwan. The Nationalists' ultimate plan was to retake mainland China. The reason they remained divided after all these years was because the Nationalists were in no shape to retake the mainland again, and they were enemies of the communists; in 1992, they basically agreed to the "One China" principle. That means Mainland and Taiwan belong to a country called "China", and based on that they would work out the differences on both sides of the strait. But Japanese remnants Lee Tung Hui and Chen Shui Bian, the two big liars broke that agreement of principle, and they are telling people in taiwan that they are NOT chinese, they have NOT been chinese, they are a different people. As with all propagandas, there must be some believers. If they do not think they are Chinese anymore then please leave the chinese island of Taiwan, then they can go else where, maybe buy a strip of land the size of Taiwan in Russia, in Canada, then nobody would care if they declare independence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quest Posted November 25, 2003 at 07:50 AM Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 at 07:50 AM sorry roddy didn't see your msg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PollyWaffle Posted November 25, 2003 at 08:16 AM Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 at 08:16 AM "nationalism is the last refuge of the scoundrel".... oscar wilde (i think) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quest Posted November 25, 2003 at 12:10 PM Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 at 12:10 PM patriotism, er? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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