Glossika method

[MPhillips]

I think there are plenty of Beijing speakers who aren't exactly broadcaster material & plenty of Taiwanese people who achieve a kind of "middle of the Taiwan Straits" effect. Vocabulary-wise I think the two sides are coming together, I doubt there are any words anymore that aren't understood by educated speakers on both sides.

[imron]

This seems excessive for spoken audio, i.e., using a lower bit/sample rate and a mono channel would produce smaller files without sacrificing audio quality.

The fact that they don't is just another indicator that bandwidth isn't a significant cost factor.

[realmayo]

etm001

 

 

I agree about the molehills. The molehill I was addressing was that most Chinese learners are used to having one standard pronunciation as a benchmark, even though they themselves might speak in a slightly different way. For instance I don't think I ever pronounce any kind of er-hua.

 

But I think for some of us, thousands of recorded sentences represent a wonderful way to drill and attack the language in a new and intensive way. The fact that all that language will be coming in a different accent feels a bit like it's introducing a new benchmark to work off.

 

I take your point that this 'method' isn't aimed at people whose Chinese isn't already quite developed and agree that I was wrong to write about 'learning to speak in a third accent'. However for me, although I mainly wanted the sentences for their content, I had thought they'd be good to polish my accent too.

 

 

(Authenticity: I'm assuming that the content of 99% of these sentences works just as well in Beijing as it does in Taipei. So that's why I say it doesn't matter: of course it matters to the overall Glossika material, just not to the little side-discussion about why people might have a preference for the CCTV accent for learning materials.)

[realmayo]

Perhaps the reason why this topic is quite provocative is because people who've learned in Taiwan are naturally fed up of people implying they're learning the language wrong.

 

But is there a risk of being too defensive? A preference for CCTV standard over Taiwan standard for heavy doses of learner-audio -- this doesn't mean we all think the Taiwan standard is wrong or bad, it's simply a natural preference within a language learning context, it's not any other kind of value judgement.

[OneEye]

it's not any other kind of value judgement.

 

Sure it is, by many people. Observe:

 

But it should be noted in the course that it is the Taiwanese version.

 

Why? Again, why should they have to apologize for being Taiwanese? If I were to make an English course in the US, should I have to make a disclaimer about it being American English? Isn't that like saying American English is inferior?

 

 

 

People purchasing English materials would be aware of both British and American materials and purchase what they want.

 

People purchasing Mandarin materials would be aware of both Chinese and Taiwanese Mandarin materials and purchase what they want.

 

 

 

Not a single one was Taiwanese.

 

That's precisely why it's great that it is Taiwanese Mandarin. There's very little out there for those of us who prefer that variety.

 

 

 

It would be proper to have my copy replaced with the correct version when it comes out.

 

Come on, that's just offensive and unnecessary. There's nothing incorrect about it, and saying it just shows lazy thinking on your part. You can do better.

 

 

 

I don't think that is entitled thinking, but rather running a responsible business.

 

Again: it's a Taiwanese business. Based in Taiwan. The owner has lived in Taiwan for ~20 years and speaks Taiwanese Mandarin. It makes no sense to expect that their Mandarin course would be mainland-focused.

 

 

Folks who are wondering, this kind of thing is why I and others here get defensive about Taiwanese Mandarin. It's treated like a second-class, sub-par, incorrect thing when it's every bit as acceptable and widely understood as the Chinese government standard. It's a wonder, with the Chinese government as unpopular as it is, that so many learners treat anything that goes against the PRC standard as undesirable and unworthy. It's a perfectly viable language standard, and the thing is, native speakers themselves don't care one way or the other. I've never spoken with someone from China who said anything negative about my Taiwanese accent, never had any breakdown in communication due to my Taiwanese accent, never encountered any problem whatsoever with native speakers. Learners, however, tend to have a pretty negative opinion of it with no good reason.

 

I won't even get into the whole geopolitical situation and how China not allowing other countries to recognize Taiwan's sovereignty has caused Taiwan to be a country with, as realmayo put it, "minimal influence" (which is unfair, as Taiwan punches well above its weight), but it's just interesting to me that the language standard of the repressive government who can't seem to figure out free speech, non-censorship, and human rights gets all the support, while the standard of the vibrant democracy across the strait gets dragged through the mud.

 

I understand people having a preference for one variety over the other, and that's perfectly fine. Different strokes. But why does the Taiwanese standard need to be "wrong?"

[Snuggles]

I think I am being trolled.

Everybody calm down.

No second-class club here.

 

It is good that a variety of materials is being made available.  Its ok. We all agree. Nobody is saying it isn't "great".

 

Take a deep breath. Nobody is saying Taiwan Mandarin will summon Satan if spoken.  Its not "wrong". No apology needed.  Nothing inferior. 

 

In a perfect world things would be clearly labeled so we can all get exactly what we want.  (It is a bit crazy that you question why it should be labeled clearly.  Really?)

 

If I purchased this in a bookshop I would simply make an exchange for the item I want.  Even though this is a digital purchase it isn't more complicated than that.

 

I wish all of you who are happy with the Taiwan Mandarin the best of luck in your studies.  I wish all of you who wished to purchase this material in a Mainland Mandarin version an easy exchange, and good luck in your studies.

 

No reason for anybody's backside to get tender.

 

Good Luck to all.

[realmayo]

OneEye, I'm certainly not going to say the Taiwan standard is wrong. New Zealand English isn't wrong either. It's just that it wouldn't be an obvious choice for textbook audio for most English language learners.

 

So I dispute the comparison with British/American English. Almost no one is going to pick the Taiwan standard unless they live there. But like I say, it works better with New Zealand English in the Taiwan Mandarin role.

 

As for people looking to exchange their purchases to the mainland one I'm a bit sceptical. If people had downloaded the thing and then asked for a refund asap then that might be fair, although in my opinion an overreaction. But if people found it acceptable when they bought it, as I think most should, then don't see how they can demand the mainland version for free.

[renzhe]

Dear Lord, what happened here?

There is a slight inconsistency in language naming, that's all.

With Brazilian Portuguese, Kurmanji Kurdish (!), Egyptian Arabic, Southern Min (!) and Hong Kong Cantonese (!) the varieties are clearly labelled -- which is great. With French (France) and German (Germany), they are not, but these varieties are dominant by far in language teaching, so that's fine and consistent with the language teaching practice.

With Mandarin, it a special situation. Standard Mandarin as spoken in Taiwan is a perfectly legitimate and valid form of Mandarin, but less common in teaching materials. Perhaps a good example would be Quebecois French or Standard German as spoken in Switzerland. It's awesome to have such courses, the accents are universally understood, but it's nice to be explicit in such cases.

It's an understandable situation, given that the Chinese course predates all others, which can explain the naming inconsistency. They probably got more specific with time. Glossika have never hidden the fact that their native speakers are from Taiwan, but it still would have been nice to make this explicit in the course name. It's probably a lot of work to redo all the covers and naming on all the existing copies and MP3s, and not worth the effort.

It's not a huge deal in any case.

[mandarynski]

Hi Guys,

Sorry, couldn't stop myself.

I'm very grateful to Mike Campbell and his team for putting all these courses together because they have opened a few doors which I thought were going to stay locked to me for quite some time. I'm now about to start his S.Min (Taiwanese Hokkien) course and I'm really looking forward to it. It's been mentioned before by a few people (renzhe being just one of them) how difficult and time consuming putting together a collection of phrases is). I know because I tried and came to the conclusion, that I would be willing to pay someone to do this for me: choose and write up the sentences, get a native speaker to record them, etc. Now, to have this available at the price offered is a very good bargain indeed. As to the accent, I would side with the minority here: people like me are so happy to have material available, researched and put together in this way because of the scarcity of recourses available in this version. My native Taiwanese friends assure me, the speaker's pronunciation is standard and clear. As for the business, it's only natural, that somebody based in Taiwan, with his own Taiwanese experience would obviously produce a course using the most logical resources. I find it slightly disappointing, that time and time again, the "Taiwanese Mandarin" is being portrayed as "second best" or something. Taiwan is a powerhouse of Mandarin culture, literature, cinema and the arts. Taiwanese drama and films are so popular that even on the Mainland people got to be very proficient in reading the traditional characters(through subs). MTC at Shīdà had established itself as a world class centre for Mandarin learners long before the Mainlanders have opened up to the idea and the Linkou campus offers a Mandarin study programme for foreigners, the graduates of which have been complemented on their language proficiency. As has been said before, if you specifically wanted a course in Mainland Chinese, you should have made sure what you were getting. Next time I'm in Taiwan, I'm going to buy OneEye a beer.

Better stop here, get back to my study. D.

[ChTTay]

Mandarynsky - great, passionate post. I am wary to wade into this thread but here goes...

The thing is, as RenZhe mentions, it's really just an inconsistency with labelling. Why should I have to work so hard to find out more about the content of this course? Rightly or wrongly, I bet a good amount of people will read "Mandarin Chinese" as being some kind of mainland China standard. However, the only way you can find out is through buying it yourself or stumbling across this post on Chinese forums. I would expect any course to have full transparency as to what it actually is. As a company, surely not doing this just leaves you open to less than satisfied customers? They wouldn't have to change the name of the course, just add the information to the course information.

[OneEye]

Next time I'm in Taiwan, I'm going to buy OneEye a beer.

 

I'd take you up on that, but I live in Tokyo.

 

I think I'm done with this discussion otherwise. I should have realized it wasn't going to go anywhere. Nothing new there.

[Crush]

I didn't mean for things to get stuck on this, for me i'll just say that i'd gladly spend an extra $30-$40 bucks to get the mainland version (or as someone else put it, to "exchange" the Taiwan version for the mainland version). I think $75 is a fair price and would pay that for other courses (i've actually already bought other courses), but i bought the Taiwan version early on partly for the course and partly to support Mike/Glossika. Paying full price for the new course just feels like paying $130 ($60+$70) for the course i originally wanted. Again i won't complain if there's no deal for early purchasers, i just won't buy the new course, that's all.

 

Btw, i've seen references to "our expression level" products, but have they actually released any? I'm curious to see what those are like.

 

The website also lists "Free Updates & Support", but i haven't heard anything about that. Maybe i'll e-mail them about that today. I think the choice to use Facebook may have been a poor choice, at least for users in China (and perhaps Iran when the Farsi course comes out).

[etm001]

@mandarynski said:

 

I'm now about to start his S.Min (Taiwanese Hokkien) course and I'm really looking forward to it.

Just out of curiosity, what's your current level in Taiwanese? I bought the S. Min/Taiwanese package at the pre-release price, but haven't devoted time to it yet (all my time is still focused on Mandarin). Knowing that the Glossika materials aren't aimed for pure beginners, I figured I'd need to spend some time with textbooks to learn basic pronunciation (the tone sandhi in Taiwanese makes my head hurt) and build a basic vocabulary before incorporating Glossika. (I have the Harvard Taiwanese book as well as several books in Mandarin aimed at Taiwanese who want to learn the language. I've heard Maryknoll offers online classes but I've not looked into it.)

 

@mandarynski said:

 

I'm very grateful to Mike Campbell and his team for putting all these courses together because they have opened a few doors which I thought were going to stay locked to me for quite some time.

I completely agree. Mike is producing material for many languages (e.g., Taiwanese) for which there are very few quality resources available. I don't know of any other Taiwanese language learning material like what Mike has produced (it's admittedly a small market).

[Pokarface]

Hmm, is there a point where threads get closed in this forums? I think this one has reached that point, =-p

[mandarynski]

@etm001 Indeed, I'm definitely a raw beginner to Taiwanese having started barely a week ago.

Having said that, through enthusiasm (bordering on obsession) I have been exposed to a number of tonal languages over the last 30 years. As an undergrad, I received a good few years of ear training and in the last few years have studied Mandarin, Cantonese, Tibetan and Thai. This means, that certain aspects are easier than others, for example my comfortable knowledge of the IPA transcription and a keen ear for sounds. I find the Glossika course challenging enough to keep up my interest without becoming overwhelming. I think you might be right to concentrate on one language at a time. I hope you have the CDs for the Maryknoll course; I'm sure you know you can't learn the tones from a book, though it helps to know the basics. I encourage you to study Taiwanese when the time is right for you and invite you to check on my own progress in this thread:

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/46291-my-taiwanese-hokkien-adventure-from-zero-to-fluency/

Best of luck with all your language study!

[imron]

I think this one has reached that point

As long as people wander back on topic, not really.  The mainland version will be released soon and people will want to discuss it, so might as well keep it open for that.  If things get too out of hand or off-topic admin will just delete/move posts.

[Pokarface]

Alright! It did went through a lot of transformations, hehe.

[gato]

 

According to their page they have 10,000+ customers, that's spread across a relatively large number of products. No wonder they have a tiny

profit margin at this point.

 

 

10,000+ customers would mean somewhere around USD 500K to 1 million in sales, probably at a very respectable profit margin for a product that hasn't been on the market that long.  

 

There is also a very large market of English learners in Taiwan that might be interested in a product like this.  

[sangajtam]

now chinese disappeared from this blue bar progress list on glossika.com bottom:

[crt32]

It's probably included in "All updates".

He wrote this in the facebook group:

 

 

We have some progress on vocabulary lists for several languages. I've managed to write a program that will match all the words with their pronunciations / IPA (so far it matches 2 sets of data, but I don't think it will be difficult to add a section for matching 3 sets of data). One of our employees just spent the whole month of September splitting up our Taiwanese text into words so we can match the romanization and IPA to create an index. However, after processing and output, it looks like there is a 10% error rate which means the raw data needs to be fixed by checking the errors in the output. I might be able to write a program to automate part of the process but I don't know much about programming and I haven't had any luck getting programmers who can remotely understand what I want to do. Mandarin with take another month at least. So there are two options: make everyone wait for us to finish making an index for these languages, or we can release it as a separate download.