The Stigma of Japan

[ParkeNYU]

I will be traveling to Hong Kong, Macau, Shenzhen, Guangzhou, and possibly Xiamen & Jinmen in about a month, and will stay overseas for about a month. This will be my first time in China. I am a postgraduate student, and seven years ago I lived in Japan for a summer, after having studied the language since 'teen' first appeared in my age. I love the Japanese language, culture, history, food, people, and just about everything (no, I'm not one of those cosplay/anime/manga/gaming otakus, not that there's anything wrong with that). My long-term girlfriend is Chinese, and I am going to visit her family for the first time. Because of this, I wish I had studied a Chinese language instead of Japanese, but I am trying to catch up by rapidly learning as much Mandarin as possible, and some Cantonese too for good measure (most of my Chinese experience is with the language of the Tang-Song period and with Sino-xenic readings).

 

Anyway, I'm aware that many Chinese and Korean people despise Japan. Should I keep my history with Japan quiet while I am over there? I'm also aware of the atrocities committed by the Japanese during the two Sino-Japanese wars, but from what I understand, Japan has already apologised for these actions on numerous occasions. Must I choose one or the other? I like both Chinese and Japanese culture, and I feel that many Chinese and Korean people are blinded by hate and nationalism.

 

On a side note, I am directly descended from one of Matthew Perry's close friends who personally helped Emperor Meiji come to power, so my own blood is responsible for a lot of that mess.

[889]

"I feel that many Chinese and Korean people are blinded by hate and nationalism."

 

No matter what any of us advise here, I think you're destined to wade into this troubled sea. I'd suggest you avoid topics that create tension in your relationships with Chinese people, but I doubt you can. I sense there's a compulsion there to test the waters, though I hope I'm wrong.

[Hofmann]

You should probably keep quiet until you learn how educated they are.

[TheBigZaboon]

I agree with 889. I think you ought to chill out a bit.Trouble most probably won't come looking for you. But if you continue to think as you have expressed yourself in this post, you may find it by yourself, even if it only consists of embarrassing your girlfriend or ruining your relations with her family.  

 

Even though you are related by blood to Admiral Perry, whom some Japanese consider to have come to Japan "appo nashi" (without an appointment), the worst that would happen to you in Japan is to be invited on to one of the hundreds of inane variety programs or mini documentaries that fill up Japanese TV, and asked about how much you like Japan, whether you like Japanese food, and if you are a good looking guy or girl, whether you like Japanese of the opposite sex. 

 

In China, I suppose if you go poking your nose around looking for a demonstration on a day which some Japanese or Chinese celebrity has made a silly statement in the press or written an op-ed calling for some kind of retaliation for some historical atrocity or some contemporary slight, you might find trouble, but I really doubt it. If you stumble on a demonstration, If you look Asian, and somebody thinks you're Japanese, you might get yelled at or shoved. But if you look white, they'll probably ask you out for a beer. In all of the big ugly demonstrations of the past few years, a lot of property was trashed, and the Japanese cars of Chinese people were overturned or burned, but I don't remember anybody being physically assaulted. Maybe a few Chinese were insulted or verbally abused for working in a Japanese store, but that was all, I think.

 

As to being "blinded by hate or nationalism," if you have no personal experience of this, I would be very careful about ascribing this kind of behavior to millions of people with out any proof. The thousands and thousands of Chinese people who have come to Japan to better themselves through an education or a better job  would certainly counter your sweeping assertions. As to the kind of demonstrations you see on TV, I live near the South Korean Embassy in Tokyo. Nearly every weekend, through my open windows, I can hear thousands and thousands of chanting and screaming demonstrators excoriating Koreans of all shapes and sizes. When I go out to see what all the fun is about, I see a couple of sound trucks covered with Japanese flags, driven by a couple of buffoons in store-bought camouflage suits, with their eyebrows shaved off and punch-perm haircuts. But no demonstrators, and probably twenty police to each sound truck. So demonstrations are complicated things, too. What they mean is another question. Why somebody participates can be as simple as a general feeling of sympathy and a release from class conveniently coinciding with the organization of the demo. After that the hive mind has its own dynamics.

 

Since the recent unpleasantness in Beijing around June of 1989, or so, Chinese education has been very, very nationalistic in its content and goals. While this has to have some effect, the hundreds of Chinese I interact with or do business with still have to contend with reality. Chinese attitudes are very hard to pin down on this issue. They have to contend with a blame game that includes not only Japanese, but Europeans and Americans, too. How much they are able to tune out is anybodies guess. But I have only once heard a genuine, loud-mouthed Chinese nationalist spouting off about humiliations heaped on China and how it was payback time. But this was in a very popular restaurant in Taiwan , and I couldn't figure out if the guy was a mainlander or a homegrown Taiwanese with mainland nationalist sympathies.

 

You seem to have an academic bent, so I'd recommend a look at a book called "Never Forget National Humiliation," by Zheng Wang (probably a westernized name sequence, but I don't really know), Columbia University Press, ISBN: 978-0-23114891-7) I think it's more objective and informative about the issue than you are.

[Shelley]

Have to agree with all that has already been said, keep most of what you put in your post to yourself.

 

Go with an open mind, you don't know what you will encounter and during your stay you may not see any of the behavior you describe.

 

You will only be there for a month, there is no end to bring any of these things up. You are on holiday, not a political fact finding mission.

 

Go, see, learn and enjoy the wonderful country that is china with out any preconception or prejudices.

 

I don't see why you have to choose one or the other, you just need to keep them separate. It is  what it is, there is no need to try and make it more than it is.

 

On a side note, I am directly descended from one of Matthew Perry's close friends who personally helped Emperor Meiji come to power, so my own blood is responsible for a lot of that mess.

 

 

If I were you I would consign the above to the past, you are not responsible for what happened, you cannot in anyway be considered to have contributed to to something that happened in the past. I would file this piece of information away in the back of your mind, you know it, very good, no one else needs to know.

In telling others it can come across as some kind of pride in it being your ancestor. This needs to be one of those skeletons in the cupboard that most families have but keep quiet about.

 

Live in the present and leave  the past behind.

 

i hope you have a great time in China and learn lots about the Chinese people and way of life nowadays.

[Angelina]

If you claim that an entire nation is blinded by nationalism, won't that make you a nationalist yourself? 

 

As others have said, keep an open mind and respect other people. You can love both Chinese culture and Japanese culture. Why hide the fact that you are interested in Japanese culture? You can definitely tell Chinese people that you can speak Japanese. 

 

NB I am directly descended from someone who was shot dead by the Nazi in front of the entire family. No one famous. 

[ParkeNYU]

Thanks everyone for the helpful feedback.

 

I just want to clarify that I didn't mean to imply that all Chinese and Korean people are blinded by hate and nationalism; but rather that it seems as though most are (the sample size comprising the dozens of Korean and mainland Chinese nationals I've met in university, of whom all but a few habour varying degrees of often ill-informed resentment towards Japan). I agree that Japan has done terrible things to these countries, but I believe that the British (also in my blood) are equally to blame for the trouble in East Asia because of the Opium Wars, which is why (alongside America's forced Meiji restoration) the mess with Hong Kong and Taiwan even exists in the first place. Even so, Japan appears to receive far more hatred than the Americans and British.

 

Anyway, history and politics aside, I am certainly not looking for trouble, but I also cannot hide that I speak Japanese for very long (people will inevitably wonder why a European-American with poor Chinese speaking skills can magically understand hundreds upon hundreds of characters). Once the truth emerges, it will cause a chain reaction that will ultimately expose my adoration of Japan itself, since I'll likely be asked why a European-American would possibly want to learn Japanese unless he's an otaku of sorts. I feel a social pressure to mirror the 'official' (government encouraged) Chinese stance towards Japan; not necessarily to speak out against them, but rather to carry a cold undertone of distance from them, which feels unnatural.

 

My very interest in China actually arose from the large cultural debt that Japan, China, and Vietnam owe this grand nation, which is why I am excited to learn more Chinese and to visit the Chinese mainland. While I am in Hong Kong, Macau, and Jinmen (ROC), I'll likely have to be even more careful to separate the 'China' of the mainland from 'China' as a culturally related nation of people. Unfortunately, it seems as though 'China' has become a dirty word in these places, as many on the 'left' are forcing the idea of 'China' to become conflated with the PRC, even though the civil war never ended (only the combat has). When referring to the Chinese nation without specifically implying either the PRC or the ROC, I tend to use the world 中華 rather than 中國, but I'm not sure whether my specific intention will be readily understood.

[Hofmann]

I really think you care too much. There are stupid people everywhere. I'm sure you've heard of the nettouyo. So you keep quiet about your Japanophilia but it comes out somehow. Somebody hates you for it. Is it really a big deal that stupid people hate you? Anybody with any opinions will be hated by somebody; just be glad you're hated by the right group.

[ParkeNYU]

That's a rather optimistic outlook, not a bad idea.

[Shelley]

Once the truth emerges, it will cause a chain reaction that will ultimately expose my adoration of Japan itself,

 

 

Why? it not an inevitable chemical reaction. So someone spots your cleverness with characters, why do think anyone you meet on a one month holiday is going to ask or even care why you are able to read characters?

 

There are ways of dealing with this without lieing, just smile and say yes I have learned a lot characters. end of explanation. You will most likely never see these people again so what does it matter what they think?

 

You need to lighten up, as Hofmann says you care too much.

 

All of this has the feeling of someone sitting in a room on their own going through all the possible situations that may arise using their limited knowledge base to judge it all on.

 

As they say it probably will never happen.

 

Do you really think Chinese people dislike Japanese people so much that you dare not mention your knowledge of Japanese to them?

 

When you have been to China and you return safely, please post your feelings and experiences. That would certainly be an eyeopener.

[ParkeNYU]

I will most certainly post my experiences. I guess this thread will become a 'before and after' experiment for me.

 

Perhaps you might be surprised, but the very scenario that you described has indeed happened to me on numerous occasions. For instance, when I am at a Chinese restaurant with my Chinese friends, the menus given to us are sometimes only written in Chinese. I tell them that they needn't bother the hostess for an English menu, because I can read the Chinese menu just fine. They subsequently begin speaking to me in Mandarin and are genuinely confused when I don't understand what they're saying. Someone will then say in English 'You can read the menu, but you don't understand what I said? I don't understand... do you speak another dialect?'. When I say 'I just studied a lot of characters', it will usually be met with 'and you didn't bother to learn the language that uses what you've learned? What's the point?'. I then find myself in a position where it's easiest to say 'well, I am literate in Japanese, so I've already learned most of these characters'. An alternative is to admit that I study Middle Chinese and Classical Chinese, but that leads them to question why I wouldn't 'naturally' study Chinese (read: Mandarin) first, followed by a reminder that Middle Chinese is useless in the 'real world' and that I should switch my efforts to the modern language.

[Angelina]

the British (also in my blood) are equally to blame for the trouble in East Asia because of the Opium Wars

 

Again, I will use an example from my family. 

 

The trouble did not start with the Opium Wars. It started with the Opium Trade. You know, when the British Empire was selling opium and getting more and more people addicted. Destroying the lives of many people for thirty pieces of silver. Maybe it was more silver in this case. I don't want to blame anyone for this. However, having helped a family member fight substance abuse, I know what kind of a hell Chinese families must have gone through. My father needed a lot of strength to survive alcohol withdrawal. Why would anyone intentionally do this to other people? 

 

I don't like it when all of these atrocities are being downplayed and people only talk about military tactics. Chinese and Korean people might feel the same way. You might think about Meiji restoration and the chain of events that followed, but Chinese and Korean people might think about the women who were raped by the Japanese army. It is different. Maybe no woman in your family was ever raped by an invading army, so you can't understand the horror stories Chinese and Korean people have heard growing up. It is the same for me. Probably Chinese people will be too shy to tell you, but there is a reason why a person might tremble when hearing the word Japanese army. Please have respect. 

 

Having said that, I don't think we can blame British people or Japanese people. It is much better to learn about other people and not to divide ourselves. I am glad you are willing to learn more about China. Maybe you can share your passion for Japanese culture with Chinese people. What are the things you like about Japan? If you are open-minded about the whole thing, I am sure Chinese people will be too. Why not tell them that you can speak Japanese? Feel free to do so. Reconciliation is the only way to go. 

 

About 中華, it is interesting how the PRC just inserted the character 人 and created the name 中華人民共和國 out of 中華民國. 

[realmayo]

If you're that worried, then pretend you can't read characters. But I don't see why you should be so worried about people knowing you speak Japanese. You're already weird, because you're not Chinese. The fact you studied Japanese is still less weird than the fact you're not Chinese.

 

Just find some polite way out of actually discussing the heavy stuff (e.g. 'China suffered a lot in the past but is now a powerful nation again you must all be very proud blah blah').

[Angelina]

There is no need for him to worry about it. There is nothing wrong in telling Chinese people "I love Japan".

[Shelley]

Yes, well if you had just smiled and accepted the English menu, the question would never have arisen. Your desire to show off your abilities is going to cause you more problems than your knowledge of Japanese.

 

As to all the rest of it, "atrocities that happen in the past to people who not here now" just let it go. Do you think the average Chinese person spends anytime thinking about the horrible things that have happened on a daily or even yearly time scale, NO they  are worried about their job, paying the rent, does my hat look good, what should I have for dinner etc.

 

lighten up and get on with living in the present and enjoy it.

[ParkeNYU]

Angelina, the Japanese, Americans, and British were able to commit these atrocities because 1) they all had/have deep-seated racist beliefs, and 2) they wanted to spread their cultural hegemony, increase their military might, extend their political influence, and improve their economies.

 

When I say 'Opium Wars', the opium trade is included, as there could have been no such wars without the trade. I assumed this was a reasonable implication, but I'll say it explicitly if it helps. I'm not sure who is downplaying the atrocities; I just chose not to play them up because that's a losing game and opens Pandora's box for the 'Victim Olympics'. I make a concerted effort to look at history squarely and without emotion, otherwise these emotions might blind my logic, which is unprofessional and unacceptable.

[ParkeNYU]

Shelley, I'd prefer to think that I use the Chinese menu to avoid inconveniencing my friends or the waitstaff. If I'm the only non-Chinese person there, I do not want to become more of a bother than I already am (for not speaking much Mandarin or Cantonese).

[Shelley]

Shelley, I'd prefer to think that I use the Chinese menu to avoid inconveniencing my friends or the waitstaff. If I'm the only non-Chinese person there, I do not want to become more of a bother than I already am (for not speaking much Mandarin or Cantonese).

 

Your justification for it.

 

My interpretation is you cannot help showing off.

[realmayo]

1) they all had/have deep-seated racist beliefs,

true of most people in the world today

 

2) they wanted to spread their cultural hegemony, increase their military might, extend their political influence, and improve their economies.

true of most countries in the world today

[ParkeNYU]

Shelley, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree there.

 

realmayo, yes.