The Stigma of Japan

[ParkeNYU]

戴睿先生, fair point, although there are other historical cases where empathy might apply.

[realmayo]

Do you think you might be better served by living in and listening to and learning from China first? Before you tell it how to behave, I mean?

 

People aren't all the same: they are products of their world and the Chinese world is different to the Japanese one and is different to your own. So you can't solve people's problems just by 'enlightening' them with the 'right' world viewpoint because there isn't a right one or if there is, you are highly unlikely to possess it.

[geraldc]

I think you're being hyper sensitive. As your gf is Chinese, that gets you a get out of jail card.  You're going out with a Chinese, you're now on "our'' side. My sister in law is Japanese, and lives in HK. No one ever criticises her, but luckily as she doesn't understand Cantonese yet, hasn't realised the topic of  三年零八個月, that comes up pretty much every time she meets older family members for the first time. However the topic is just reminiscing, they are able to separate historic and current events. We do make Diaoyu island jokes though.

 

I was forced to study latin at school. It's only through sheer luck that I haven't come across any visigoths who maybe upset regarding my knowledge of the language of their oppressors.

[realmayo]

Well there was one time I was about to mention my visigothic heritage but then you started quoting Pliny....

[Angelina]

I agree with post #35

[Angelina]

 

 

What I relish is their realisation that the CCP-controlled media hasn't disclosed the whole story to them, but rather only a slanted fragment.

 

Reminds me of the Jain story about the blind men and the elephant. It is also interesting to note how there are different versions of this story. 

 

I am glad that you want to be open minded and learn more about other cultures. Just don't get involved in other people's business unless you see something extremely upsetting happening. 

[ParkeNYU]

Do you think you might be better served by living in and listening to and learning from China first? Before you tell it how to behave, I mean?

 

People aren't all the same: they are products of their world and the Chinese world is different to the Japanese one and is different to your own. So you can't solve people's problems just by 'enlightening' them with the 'right' world viewpoint because there isn't a right one or if there is, you are highly unlikely to possess it.

 

My intention was never to proselytise anyone; I merely value the exposure to different points of view. Once one is made aware of a diverse array of ideas, he may then decide for himself how and whether to digest them. I am no exception, which is evidenced by the very existence of this thread, wherein I am absorbing all of the thoughts presented to me, whether or not I agree with them.

[gerri]

Wow, has this thread taken interesting twists and turns.

 

It seemed to start out mainly being about whether or not you'd get in trouble with Chinese / in China for your (original) love of Japan, though, didn't it? Worry because Japan isn't very much beloved in China?

 

What has implicitly been a theme but not been made explicit, I'd say, is that all such issues exist only in context. Many a foreigner (read: non-Chinese) learns Japanese and has no reason to hate Japan (although, some of the "economic war" themes of ca. 1985-90 sounded very different), and I haven't met many Chinese who'd care even a bit about a laowai having learned that. (Having also already come around to learning traditional Chinese because of that only makes it better; you're already half "there" in recognizing that Japanese high culture is actually old Chinese culture... is a point I've heard from Chinese).

Enough Chinese study Japanese, as has been pointed out before. Yeah, I've seen/heard of discussions over Chinese going out for a little hana-mi, especially if in a kimono, but I also have my Chinese mainland (German) language students use some Japanese words since I keep telling them they're using the wrong language when they chat in Chinese in German class. History just doesn't come up in that context, hence is no problem.

 

I've also had people randomly talk about "the Japanese devils", with or without apologies (and with apologies usually followed by a statement as to how it is all somehow justified, though, really, etc.). And they'd still buy a Sony camera and they still couldn't care less about anybody knowing Japanese and liking Japan.

 

If you think that it's all a contest for *the* *true* perspective, however, then you're going to get in trouble because you will create a context in which you yourself made the history a salient issue. Sure, you can mention apologies, but they won't have been enough and hadn't had the consequences they should have had, or so you'll be told. And then it all becomes about things like how many people were really killed in Nanjing, and how horrible the atrocities really were, and what exactly a fitting apology would be, and what it means to apologize but also visit Yasukuni, and why you'd even want to bring up such topics when your own nation is also doing things you'll not agree with, and what not.

 

Start the exposure to different views by listening yourself, not thinking you have to tell others what perspectives they haven't been exposed to. That would be like thinking a non-American going to the USA would have to tell everybody everything that Fox "News" hasn't been telling them...

[Demonic_Duck]

Last night, I went to dinner with a couple of friends. Turned out they'd been invited out by their friend, and it was one of those baijiu-fueled dinners where the conversation is mostly dominated by good-natured but increasingly inebriated middle-aged guys who love making toasts to guests and foreigners (of which, of course, I was both). One event stuck out for me, though: when the guy opposite got up to pour me more baijiu, he came round to my side of the table, and as he poured he bent down at the waist. He said "the reason I pour like this is to show respect. Now, if you were from Japan, on the other hand... I'd pour like this" (straightening out his waist and standing tall).

 

I laughed along with everyone else, though I felt a little uncomfortable. It was only a throwaway comment made in jest, but like all such comments, there's normally a grain of truth at the heart of it.

 

My main point in posting this is to drive home the point that anti-Japanese sentiment which goes beyond the limits of a disgust at war-crimes committed during WWII, or a healthy distrust of the current Japanese administration, is far from rare in China. It goes without saying that it's also far from universal - I happen to know that the friend who invited me has an overall very positive view of modern Japan, despite also being strongly patriotic towards China. But it seems that some people in this thread are labouring under the illusion that being anti-Japan is a view held by only a tiny minority. In my experience, that's far from being the case.

[geraldc]

Cuts both ways. Now some people want to ban Angelina Jolie from Japan for being ''racist''

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2866693/Racist-Angelina-Jolie-banned-Japan-Country-furious-star-s-directorial-debut-Unbroken.html

[tooironic]

But it seems that some people in this thread are labouring under the illusion that being anti-Japan is a view held by only a tiny minority. In my experience, that's far from being the case.

 

Could it be simply that the vast majority of Chinese have not had the opportunity to access a world-class education, and so it follows that there are many Chinese who have been indoctrinated to believe that Japan and its people are inherently bad?

[Johnny20270]

that's common in many countries. Travel, as mixing with other cultures really doesn't broaden the mind 

[abcdefg]

It seemed to start out mainly being about whether or not you'd get in trouble with Chinese / in China for your (original) love of Japan, though, didn't it? Worry because Japan isn't very much beloved in China?

 

My landlord's family (in Kunming) includes a professor of Japanese at one of the local universities. They make no secret of respecting Japan and liking certain features of Japanese culture.

 

Also, more than a few of my (Chinese) friends chose Japanese as a second foreign language for their postgraduate degree programs (in China.) They didn't study in secret.

 

Keep an open mind. It isn't as black and white as you might currently think.

[陳德聰]

What an intriguing discussion.

 

I would say I generally find Americans to be blinded by nationalism and their hatred of the "Islamic State", or previously the "Commies" (though I guess while we're at it they probably still hate the Commies there's just less of them to yell about), but then I like to remind myself that that type of thinking is another form of quasi-racism via nationalism (as Angelina mentioned back in #6), and is best left in the corner of "stupid things I permit myself to think occasionally in moments of weakness, but try my best never to say lest the world discover I am an imbecile".

It is equally absurd to ask the same question, replacing China with the US and Japan with "Islam". Actually perhaps it's a bit more absurd considering who the main antagonist is in each situation, but really, if you can't reasonably ask the same question about your home country, then chances are there's a problem with either your worldview or your question, or maybe both, who knows?

The lovely young people I discuss politics in Chinese with sometimes talk about Japan, but rarely. They certainly don't froth at the mouth when we do. It just seems like a silly, stereotypical conception of "China" you've got going on.

P.S. I did not realize this thread had been dead for a few days until after I'd already type all that. I think there's some saying about shooting a dead horse or something morbid like that? Sorry.

[tysond]

Maybe "don't wake sleeping samurai?"

[hedwards]

I think the best advice here is to take it easy and get to know them first. I also think that it's going to depend a bit where you are in China. The town I spent most of 2012 teaching in had been bombed to the ground by Japanese bombers during WWII and I'm sure there were plenty of people living in the area that still live there who remember what happened.

 

That being said, it's hardly just the Japanese, I know that as an American there are things that are best not talked about. I know that at times the relationship can be a bit strained and I just avoided talking about those subjects. Now, if it's somebody I really know I might loosen up a bit, but by and large I was happier just avoiding things like that. And I'm sure there's enough built up history between other Asian nations that there are things best not discussed with random strangers.

 

If you feel like stigma is going to be a big issue, the best thing is really to just relax and try to have thick skin if somebody does say something offensive or gets offended. I found that some of the Chinese I was dealing with had a somewhat different slice of history that they knew about, so Hitler was that nice man with a moustache, but they knew far more than I did about the various activities of the Japanese during WWII.