A serious question: religion?

[elina]

(David, it's strange, we can receive your e-mail but cannot send e-mail to you! I just received your e-mail, and re-checked your e-mail address we used to send letters in this whole week, no mistake! Would you please register a new free e-mail box, such as on www.yahoo.com or Hotmail, so that in future, we can contact you through your two e-mail boxes to avoid such things happen.

Now the method of checking your Private Message here on this website:

1. press User CP on the top with your computer mouse

2. press List Messages on the left

You will find two letters from us on this website. The first letter is a copy of the third letter of requesting you reconfirming your receiving address which we have sent to your e-mail box. The second letter is to inform you that we have sent your book which we also have sent to your e-mail box.

Please feel free to contact us if you have any questions.)

However, I would have to know what these healings were. I refrained from using examples of what I have heard from other Christians, because it does take away from the authenticity of what is being said. I can trust what you have seen, but I cannot trust what you have been told by someone else. Do you understand? When I talk about healing, I am not talking about somone that is sick with a cold, or sick pneumonia (sp?) or something like that... because in actuallity, your body can heal itself, in time, of those types of things. I am talking about degenerative diseases where there is no physical or scientific cure for.

There are 五戒 in Buddhism: 不杀生、不偷盗、不邪淫、不妄语(no cheating)、不饮酒. And I heard from my colleague Buddhist that there are people with cancer who are finally healthy after they believe in Buddhism. Because I know my colleague’s moral quality during everyday’s understanding in work, and I know the五戒, I believe her. I understand it cannot persuade you, because this is not seen by myself. Now I do not yet believe in Buddhism in deed, it’s impossible for me to meet many Buddhists and see the truth personally. 因为你是基督教的圈中人，所以你亲眼看见；而我是佛教的圈外人，没有什么机会亲眼看见。

Powerful healings that cannot be healed or explained by natural abilities of the mind or positive thinking. These types of things, even if I wanted to, I could not deny to reality of God. It is not I who heal these people for praying for them, but it is God. There are many times when I wish people would get healed, but they don't... no matter how hard I wish for somethng, or how many possitive thoughts I have, it won't heal the person.

Do you mean that if a person himself does not really believe in God, he cannot get healed, no matter how hard you pray for him?

Battosai, I think maybe my colleague Buddhist believes in 净宗，and I noticed once you mentioned Zen in China / 禅宗in your former post, what’s the difference between the two?

[Song You Shen]

Do you mean that if a person himself does not really believe in God, he cannot get healed, no matter how hard you pray for him?

No, that's not what it means. People that do not believe in God can be healed. Even sometimes, if the person themself doesn't believe in God, but still prays to get healed, God sometimes heals that person.

What I was trying to say is that, I am not healing the person. My prayers are not healing the person. God is healing the person. My prayers are just requests that I make before the Lord, it is ultimately God's decision to heal or not to heal.

Youshen

[gougou]

I refrained from using examples of what I have heard from other Christians, because it does take away from the authenticity of what is being said.

Why doesn't that apply to the Bible?

My prayers are just requests that I make before the Lord, it is ultimately God's decision to heal or not to heal.

Is God more likely to heal a person if you pray? (well, as you don't know what might have been, I take it that's impossible to say, but do you believe He is?)

[Song You Shen]

Why doesn't that apply to the Bible?

Is God more likely to heal a person if you pray? (well' date=' as you don't know what might have been, I take it that's impossible to say, but do you believe He is?)[/quote']

I am not sure I understand what you are asking in the first question. I was just commenting on how it is easier to believe a personal account from the person you are talking to, rather than something that they've heard from someone else (second-hand account).

The bible says, "you have not because you ask not." God loves to give blessing, but so many times we miss out on the blessing because we simply don't ask. It is like a parent with money. The child wants to go out to see a movie, but doesn't have money. If the child never asks for money they will never be able to go to the movies. But all they have to do is ask. The whole time the parents are willing to give them money (to bless them), but the child first needed to ask. However, that is not to say that the parents never just randomly give the children money... likewise, God many times just randomly blesses us, even if we havent' asked for anything. The bible says "His ways are higher than our ways, His thoughts are higher than our thoughts," I don't think that I could fully answer you on this question of yours. I just pray because that is where relationship with God is built, it is in that place of prayer where I feel that I come before the presence of the Lord and can make requests.

Youshen

edit*

I was just reading through the book of Romans (in the Bible) and came across this, Romans 9:15-16: "For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion. So then it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.'" --- This is what I was trying to communicate.

[Battosai]

Elina wrote:

I’m afraid that I could not understand this paragraph clearly, could you please make an example? Many thanks in advance.

Jun Heng Clinic wrote:

This is very interesting. I would love it if you could explain your experience in a little more detail, in particular where the suffering comes from. But it seems to me that it is coming from your appreciation of the WHOLE of life, and therefore you are really sensing the suffering of others.

I’m afraid my explanation of why Buddhism is a hard path was not very good. I will try to explain from a different direction.

The essence of life is change and transformation. In order to deal with this change there are many helpful mechanisms in the brain. Thinking is one of them. As we all know quite often unwanted things happen to us, while wanted things often don't happen. This is reality and there is nothing you can do about it. It seems though that one of the function of the brain , namely that of thinking has grown out of proportion. Now don't get me wrong – thinking is a highly important tool . Still ,in meditation I discover that the mind tends to identify with the thinking process. Let’s say some Christian friend has written a post that contradicts what I believe. The mind acknowledges that and plans several ways to deal with it(like writing an opposing post , or researching in books etc). This is all very practical and good. Misery starts when I identify with my thinking, I think that contradicting my way of thinking is a personal attack on me. This is accompanied by an unpleasant sensation in the body. The mind reacts to this unpleasant sensation by further dwelling on the subject (in this example – the post) that threatens the ego and before I know it I’m unhappy. I have just generated bad karma. The next time I see this person's post , my mind will automatically have negative feelings towards that person –this is the fruit of the karma I generated before.

What I described now is just one example of how we generate unhappiness for ourselves. In Buddhist meditation we are asked to look carefully at the mind and body and examine it. When I do that I can see that I generate unhappiness constantly even without external objects. Now the mind have different strategies to escape unhappy states – usually through material objects (different types of lust) or through fantasizing about the future /dwelling on the past. But the essence of Buddhist meditation is to examine reality directly (only this way the habit pattern of the mind will change) so it's a constant battle with the mind. Of course not everything you discover in meditation is in the form of pain and suffering. Sometimes there are very blissful stages, but again we are advised to avoid identification with them as the tendency to try and recreate them is in itself a form of suffering (‘the suffering of separation’)

Please remember that this is my personal view. I am by no means an authority on Buddhism and not a qualified meditation teacher.

BTW- I heard of Mantak Chia in relation to some tantric practices. I understand that he is a very serious teacher. I know very little about Taoist meditation . I would be happy if you can tell me more.

[Battosai]

elina said

Battosai, I think maybe my colleague Buddhist believes in 净宗，and I noticed once you mentioned Zen in China / 禅宗in your former post, what’s the difference between the two?

As I said before I am not an expert. I think净宗 is what we call ‘Pure Land’ in English. The essence of this (Chinese) form of Buddhism is the belief that the practice of meditation as instructed by the historical Buddha is too difficult for the average person. According to the legend a Bodhisattva named ‘Amitabha’ (阿弥陀) promised that those who will recite his name and believe in him will reincarnate in the Western Heaven (the ‘pure land’) . Rebirth in the pure land supposedly makes it easier to become a Buddha. This is perhaps a bit similar to Christianity where a belief in Jesus buys you the ticket to heaven. I think practice in ‘pure land’ is mostly reciting Buddha Amitabha’s name and keeping Sila (五戒) but there might be some forms of meditation. Basically the practitioner's aim is to achieve rebirth in the ‘pure land’. This is the most popular sect in China and it’s quite big in Korea, Japan and Vietnam.

Zen (I’m using the English term which is based on the Japanese pronunciation) is very different. Again it's a Chinese form of Buddhism that centres on meditation . In fact the word Chan 禪 comes from the Sanskrit word for meditation ‘dhayana’ (禪 was probably pronounced differently in the past). The practitioner aims at breaking the dualistic misconception of reality enforced by the deluded ego. Which means the meditator wants to experience the present fully without the filter of the ego. This direct experience of reality is enlightment.There are many meditation techniques developed by Zen. Some are very famous in the west (like the Koan 公案 I have yet to meet a Japanese or a Chinese who has the faintest idea of what a koan is , though many westerners do). Zen is also responsible to the only sutra that was written in China – the Sutra of Huineng (all other sutras were written in India)

There are other differences but I noted the ones I thought were fundamental. Interestingly in terms of doctrine there is much less difference.

[Battosai]

Song You Shen wrote:

. Here is the main, #1 reason why I do not believe I am wrong. I know God. I have relationship with Him. I have seen crippled people from birth get up out of wheelchairs, people with cancer get healed. Blind people healed. All of these I’ve seen in person. I have prayed for people and they have gotten healed. I have been healed. I have heard the voice of God, I have prophesied many times and they are true and accurate. I could continue give more examples, these are just a few…

This is very interesting. You have experience God ,that is why you are convinced of its existence. This is an undeniable proof. But can I ask you , does the existence of God proves Christianity? Maybe if you were born is Syria and had met God it would have fortified your belief in Islam? I believe that you have a personal relationship with God but does that proves the bible is true? An Indian would tell you that your relationship with God is the ultimate proof that the Upanishad are true. Hindus and Jews also believe in God .They will agree with you that God exist . But they will not agree on the monopoly that Jesus followers have on interpreting God. (in fact I bet Jesus himself would not agree on that, my feeling is that if Jesus was alive today he wouldn’t be a Christian)

Can you explain what makes you certain that Christianity is the only true religion?

One more thing – I find this particular thread very interesting and illuminating. My questions are for stimulating the conversation and are not aimed at provoking anyone. This can be a touchy subject and so I apologise if I offended anyone by mistake

[Song You Shen]

This is very interesting. You have experience God ' date='that is why you are convinced of its existence. This is an undeniable proof. But can I ask you , does the existence of God proves Christianity? Maybe if you were born is Syria and had met God it would have fortified your belief in Islam? I believe that you have a personal relationship with God but does that proves the bible is true? An Indian would tell you that your relationship with God is the ultimate proof that the Upanishad are true. Hindus and Jews also believe in God .They will agree with you that God exist . But they will not agree on the monopoly that Jesus followers have on interpreting God. (in fact I bet Jesus himself would not agree on that, my feeling is that if Jesus was alive today he wouldn’t be a Christian)

Can you explain what makes you certain that Christianity is the only true religion?[/quote']

Actually this has simple answer. Here in this thread we all talked about religion. We have all discussed different things about different faiths and beliefs, and even philosophies. But we haven't even mentioned the most important part... relationship. What is the point of having religion if it is dead? What is the point of believing in a god that never responds to you? What is religion without relationship?.... it is dead.

My relationship with God is not very different than my relationship with my friends on some levels. When you have relationship with someone, what exactly does that mean? For me, it means that you both know each other. You know each other's names, you know each other's personalities, likes and dislikes, etc. So, in this way, I know God. I know His names, Jehovah, Yahweh, Elohim, Elshadia, etc, etc, etc. I know God's personality, and I know some of the things that He likes and dislikes.

The fact that God has revealed His name, Jehovah to me is very significant to why I believe in Christianity. You gave an example of growing up in an Islamic environment and having the realization of God and thinking that it would affirm my faith in Islam... but you have to understand that Allah is not Jehovah. In fact, Allah (aka the moon god) is talked about quite often in the Bible. The name Allah in ancient times was "Ba'al", the false god of many different nations that were enemies with Israel. Another fact is that in Islamic countries, those people that are met by God (Jehovah) will most likely die for converting to Christianity (this is the same in Hindu countries like India). A minister that I recently met used to be a PLO Islamic terrorist. He knows more about Islam than anyone I have ever met before. While he was at his home he decided to study the Bible so that he could prove it wrong... as He studied it out (and I mean, really studied it out... these types of guys are very serious about this type of stuff) God met him and he gave up Islam, and became a Christian. How could one that is so entrentched in Isalm (especially an extremist) turn over and give his life to Jehovah? Because just as God makes Himself real and undeniable, He makes His word (the Bible) real and undeniable as well. The Bible says that Gods speaks in many ways, but they can be generalized by two different words: Logos and Rhema. Both of these Greek words mean "words" however, Logos refers to written words while Rhema refers to spoken words. The Bible is the Logos of God. Since God has not only shown Himself to be real to me, He has shown me that His word is just as real and powerful. You cannot have one without the other. The Logos and Rhema go together. Therefore, since I have an understanding that God's word, the Bible, is the truth, then I believe what it says... that "Jesus is the only way." Since I believe this, Christianity is the only true religion. I hope that this helps, if you have any questions about it, let me know.

If like to hear about stuff that is going on in the world, or would like to know more about Walid Shoebat I recommend you go to these sites (both of which are extremely interesting)---

I would highly recommend you read this interview with him (very interesting):

- http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=14159

or His biography:

- http://www.shoebat.com/bio.php

Youshen

[Battosai]

Actually this has simple answer. Here in this thread we all talked about religion. We have all discussed different things about different faiths and beliefs, and even philosophies. But we haven't even mentioned the most important part... relationship. What is the point of having religion if it is dead? What is the point of believing in a god that never responds to you? What is religion without relationship?.... it is dead.

My relationship with God is not very different than my relationship with my friends on some levels. When you have relationship with someone, what exactly does that mean? For me, it means that you both know each other. You know each other's names, you know each other's personalities, likes and dislikes, etc. So, in this way, I know God. I know His names, Jehovah, Yahweh, Elohim, Elshadia, etc, etc, etc. I know God's personality, and I know some of the things that He likes and dislikes.

The fact that God has revealed His name, Jehovah to me is very significant to why I believe in Christianity. You gave an example of growing up in an Islamic environment and having the realization of God and thinking that it would affirm my faith in Islam... but you have to understand that Allah is not Jehovah. In fact, Allah (aka the moon god) is talked about quite often in the Bible. The name Allah in ancient times was "Ba'al", the false god of many different nations that were enemies with Israel. Another fact is that in Islamic countries, those people that are met by God (Jehovah) will most likely die for converting to Christianity (this is the same in Hindu countries like India). A minister that I recently met used to be a PLO Islamic terrorist. He knows more about Islam than anyone I have ever met before. While he was at his home he decided to study the Bible so that he could prove it wrong... as He studied it out (and I mean, really studied it out... these types of guys are very serious about this type of stuff) God met him and he gave up Islam, and became a Christian. How could one that is so entrentched in Isalm (especially an extremist) turn over and give his life to Jehovah? Because just as God makes Himself real and undeniable, He makes His word (the Bible) real and undeniable as well. The Bible says that Gods speaks in many ways, but they can be generalized by two different words: Logos and Rhema. Both of these Greek words mean "words" however, Logos refers to written words while Rhema refers to spoken words. The Bible is the Logos of God. Since God has not only shown Himself to be real to me, He has shown me that His word is just as real and powerful. You cannot have one without the other. The Logos and Rhema go together. Therefore, since I have an understanding that God's word, the Bible, is the truth, then I believe what it says... that "Jesus is the only way." Since I believe this, Christianity is the only true religion. I hope that this helps, if you have any questions about it, let me know.

I think that if God himself had told you ‘Song You Shen – Christianity is the only true religion ‘ (btw- did he say anything about the dispute between Catholics and Protestants? ) then there is very little room for discussion ,is there?

Still, I personally doubt it. Allow me to be bold and claim that your spiritual experiences (which I don’t doubt) were interpreted by a Christian filter that was installed through your upbringing. I think it is impossible for me to prove this though, right? All I can do is point out that your view is not shared by all Christians (though probably shared by the majority). Some mystics in the Christian tradition such as Meister Eckhart or Khalil Gibran had a different experience of God: God that is a manifestation of pure love. A God within that has no name and no desire, It does not get angry or selfishly want people to convert to ‘his church’ . His love has no bounds. A God that has no personality. A God too big and too great to be expressed by a book (or language) and monopolized by a human organization.

I still claim that had you been born in Syria you would have interpreted your experience as the voice of Allah. I am not convinced by your ‘Ba’al’ argument. Mohammad grew up in a polytheistic environment in which people worshiped many Gods. Please notice that in the bible the God Ba’al is almost always mentioned together with the God Ashtorot. Mohammad rejected polytheism and adopted monotheism, not only the idea of monotheism but the monotheistic God of Abrahamic religions. Muslims recognise Moses and Jesus as prophets, therefore they believe in the same God that you do. The word Allah is Arabic and it corresponds to the Hebrew word El which means ‘God’ .

It is not true that in Islamic countries people die for converting to Christianity. There have been Christian minorities in almost all Muslim countries since the beginning of Islam. In fact the famous Islam decree of Jihad that is basically a ‘convert-or-die- policy is not to be applied to other monotheists (i.e Jews and Christians) . Throughout history, the Muslims usually followed this law; they were very brutal with the animists / polytheists but usually left Jews and Christians alone. This is why many Jewish and Christian communities in Muslim countries survived till this day while polytheistic and animists didn’t.

It is grossly untrue that converting to Christianity will result in death in India. India is one of the most religiously tolerant cultures in the world. The Christian community there is one of the oldest in the world. It has always lived in harmony with the Hindu majority. Other religions such as the Sikh, Jain and Buddhism also lived in harmony with the Hindus. In fact it wasn’t until the monotheistic Muslims came with their ‘one-God-policy’ that conflict between religions was even thought of.

The interview with the young Palestinian is very interesting. But it tells us very little about religion. He seems to be making the claim that he left Islam because it was intolerant and promoted hatred. He adopted Christianity because it was more liberal and tolerant. In fact doctrine-wise Islam and Christianity are quite similar : 1) One God Policy 2) ‘ I am right and you are wrong’. I think the relative tolerance of the Western world does not stem from Christianity or Judaism (like Shoebat is trying to insinuate) but from a reaction to monotheism that started with the Enlightment in Europe. In fact its quite easy to see the correlation between intolerance and religion fundamentalism in the West .

May all beings be happy

[shibo77]

Cool new interface on the forum

This is wrong:

1. No. I know this sounds closed minded and prideful, but really it isn’t. Let me try to explain. Say there are two students. Each student comes from a different country. One country has the correct teaching that 1+1=2 and the other country says that 1+2=2. Student 1 has the correct knowledge of math and know the *true answer. The second student doesn’t know the truth, but rather, only perceives the truth based on what he has been taught for so many years. When these students come together, both will argue. The first student must seem very closed minded if he does not accept that 1+1 might not actually =2. Even more so, Student 1 must seem very prideful to claim that he has the “correct” answer. I gave you this example to try to explain that truth is not a relative term.

1+1=2 and 1+2=2 are equally correct and incorrect. You have climbed down the hole so deep you have lost the sense of clarity. You say 1+1=2 is true because you were brought up and taught that way. Why do people not want to convert to using Hanyu Pinyin instead of Chinese characters? This is simply because they were taught with Chinese characters and not Hanyu Pinyin. In fact, I could say + = or + =

If for some reason the education system decided to teach that, then who is to say + doesn't equal ? Both are equally ridiculous and equally relative. There are no absolutes anywhere, except maybe the fact that there are no absolutes... however even that I doubt.

Shakespeare himself said "a rose would smell as sweet by any other name", if I called rose "poo" it would still be sweet-smelling. However with your nervous system in your brain hard-wired from childhood by school and by parents, "poo" immediately leads you to disgust and "rose" immediately leads you to beauty. They are just sounds made from vibration of our vocal cords! Even the perception of something smelled sweet is ridiculous. In prehistoric time, hormones would be considered sweet-smelling, now people hate it and come up with perfumes and deoderants to hide it. A snake would smell things much differently, a lion would consider raw meat sweet-smelling, and the rose itself wouldn't smell anything. A rose would just know that by giving off some sort of scent it can attract bees to carry their pollen in order for the species(roses) to survive.

In fact tell me pretty much any "absolutes" you can think of, and I can prove it wrong. Of course don't tell me that "There is no God but God", or "Jesus Christ is the true Lord", that I don't know where to begin...

In the end, my philosophy is believe whatever you want to believe, because I believe there are no way we could know all without being all. There are three tiers of knowledge, 人knowledge of the self, 地knowledge of the environment, and 天knowledge of all. Any knowledge not on the scale of all is not true knowledge. However without being all you cannot possibly know all. Go back to the snake example, we could build an infrared vision that allows us to see what snakes see, or use a kaleidoscope to see what insects see. We have to be them, or at least their eyes to know it. If their is a God that is all and therefore knows all, then it certainly isn't a he and certainly isn't a Middle Eastern carpenter wearing a white tunic.

All of the religions, and all of what we do could be explained by evolutionary theories. There are alot of things that science could explain but you have to learn it first, and if you find some of the science theories wrong, you can disprove it. Science changes and knowledge is gained. If nothing changes then that means you are happy with what you have, that means you have all the knowledge of the universe. I don't like these topics because they tend to drag on for very long but they don't go anywhere. This is the same with the topic of ending the use of Chinese characters and changing to an alphabetic script. No use, because people just go with what they are taught and what they are familiar with, and they have good reasons. When you teach a child, you are hard-wiring one's nervous system and the neural network in one's brain, it is basically permanent and lasts a lifetime. This is why the education of a person, especially a child is very important. You are defined by what you learn. Even the decisions you make are made by what you 've learnt.

Also, happy 56th birthday China!

-Shìbó

[Song You Shen]

I don't have a ton of time now to answer you like normal (i'll try to respond with more info later on), but you are grossly misinformed about the amount of Christians that are martyred every year in Muslim and Hindu nations. I do not tell you this because of things I have read in books, but because of people that I know personally. This palestinian, Walid Shoebat (who is, by the way, around 60 years old) has a very large bounty on his head. This bounty was placed on him by the Islamic community. I have a speech on MP3 if you would like to hear him. I have many friends in India who have had family members killed or tortured because they had become christians. In many hindu cities (not every one though) Churches are raided and burned. If you research it, you'll find that hundreds of churches are burned every year in India. Just a few years ago, a missionary and his entire family were burned alive inside of their own car by a hindu mob. In China churches are often raided and the congregations are either imprissioned or set to concentration (i.e. re-education) camps. How do i know these things? I did not leran these things from watching news, or reading books... but from meeting people that have endured such things.

Your argument on Ba'al is also incorrect. The aribic word for Ba'al is not "El." The information that you mentioned concerning muhamid is also incomplete... I want to comment on more things, but it will have to wait till later...

Youshen

[Battosai]

Song You Shen

I'm waiting for your reply, take your time, don’t worry.

I have only spent a year in India so perhaps I am not so informed , I do know that historically the relationship between Hindus and Christians were good. If they had deteriorated then that's unfortunate.

I have, though, spent over 20 years in the Middle East. I think I am quite well informed about the situation there. I agree with you that there are conflicts between Muslims and Christians (ever heard of the ‘Sabra and Shatila massacre’?) but I never heard of anyone dying because of converting or churches being raided. Mind you , it wouldn’t surprise if these things happen. I will now modify my claim:

Historically the Muslims were quite tolerant towards other monotheists (Jews and Christians) especially if compared with their treatment of other religions.

Also I didn’t say that ‘El’ is the Arabic word for Ba’al. In fact I suggest that Allah has nothing to do with Ba’al. Allah (الله) is Arabic for God and it is similar to the Hebrew word ‘El’ which can be found in the bible. Ask your Arabic Christian friends how you say God in Arabic. Mohammad didn’t invent the word.

May you always be at ease and achieve the highest bliss

[Du4 Ke4]

Reading over this thread, I dont feel that there is going to be a correct answer. Shibo77 takes a good answer.

When you have two or more religions claiming that their God is the only true God, there will be no correct answer unless one can convince the other to convert... even then the answer may not be correct but accepted overall.

This thread needs to be seen as opinions and beliefs laid out in an online forum but not as arguements and rebuttals otherwise the thread will continue ad infinitum (if it exists!! ).

Anyway, as an 'athiest', this thread is pretty interesting.

In my opinion, religion is pretty necesary as the thought of the alternative is quite lonely and scary.

Carl Sagan's 'Contact' shows an interesting parallel between science and religion even though it smacked of hollywood. Apparently Linda Goodman challenged him to look at astrology as 'valid science' as opposed to a pseudo science and to view religion/faith as the same quest for ultimate truth and understanding as science.

Anyway I will stop now as I can foresee numerous replies cutting me down.

duke

[Marco]

Reading some replies on this forum made A: laugh very hard B: made me very upset, being indoctrinated that god was the only god and Jesus is the way for more then twelve years I started to doubt the whole thing, nobody seemed to have right answers, I have been looking around for a year or two an when I was fourteen I turned to Buddhism, meanly because you don’t have to believe in a god, it’s all up to you, by the way in Buddhism you don’t want to become a god as some one said ( I must say I though it was a very hurting and mean reply from this guy, very American reborn Christian kind of thing, please respect others, ai making the same mistake here)

Most of all religion is some thing you use to guide your self, to give you a frame work to live in, it can give you a couple of answers but not all, you your self give meaning to life, life is a big paradox and putting religion in it as an answer is not going to make it more easy, ask a 5 year old who’s parents pasted away because of aids and is starving from hunger if he believes that this is gods will, I wonder what he would say.

Religion is not a fixed thing, if it makes you a better person, use it, but no religion is the best, and non is the worse, it is what we do with it. Simply respect and keep respecting others.

[nipponman]

I think the best way for one to know which religion is best, is to see which religion works the best. Let's face it, people get into religion to get something. I can't lie, so I admit that I'm the same. I want salvation. Religion is the way to get it. So, I will do what I can to get it. But, people can't quantify salvation because noone has been condemned to hell or recieved into heaven yet. So how can you tell? Which country leads the world? Which country has all of the military power and control? I don't wanna sound ignorant but, America does. It's not because democracy is so sucessful, one-leader governments (don't know their names) would be just as sucessful as democracy is if you could get a non-corrupt leader (as there has been some) IMO, but it is because America is a Christian nation. Now, America isn't as good of a Christian nation as it was, and it is slowly waining, that will be more apparent in the coming years IMO. But, Countries that still practice idol worship, (haiti, some african countries, etc) are undeveloped. Because their religion can't save them, and it really can't help them. That's how I tell at least. China has been sucessful, but not as sucessful as America, IMO. But China is communist anyway, not buddhist.

[gougou]

Wow, Nipponman, that's some provocative thesis you're putting forth there... I would look for the reasons for America's strength somewhere else.

I'd even venture to say that in the not so distant future, China will overtake the US without converting to Christianity first.

[Long Zhiren]

This is one of my favorite topics of discussion so I'll slowly wade into this beginning with nipponman's msg #116...I'll get to page 1 and the original topic some day.

I would argue that the United States is not exactly a Christian nation.

If there is a well-represented "religion" in the US, it is a rather amorphous "civic religion" that has almost nothing to do with Christianity. This civic religion is full of superstitions and Christian heresies. Many Americans are enslaved to ancient idols like any of various carnal desires. The popular desires for abortion and embryonic stem cell research are atune to the ancient practices of child sacrifice. Trying to appease gods of health and of prosperity should be an ancient familiarity.

If historical orthodox Christianity can be defined by the Gospel and summarized by its creeds (eg "I believe in God the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth..."), most Americans do not believe in these things and actually reject these items.

First, with the Gospel, there is a total depravity/sinfulness of every single person; but there is savlation by Christ through the mercy and grace of God. Most Americans don't believe either. They don't believe in an inherent sinfulness but some kind of sufficient goodness. They are still trying to save themselves with their own good works, not unlike Buddhists who also have non-altruistic reasons for trying to be good.

Second, with the creeds, it is again a small minority of Americans who will confess belief in the supernatural birth, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. While most Americans refer to Jesus, they clearly confuse the identity of Jesus. They are in fact, calling out to many different Jesus's. Unless the Christian Jesus has multiple schizophrenic personalities and identities, something is greatly amiss here.

If others in the world are impressed by Americans and think that it is Christianity that they see in practice, they have simply done the same thing Americans do already. In Christian terms, it is called seeing the world through sinful eyes, hearts and minds. It would be a miracle at all if anybody saw anything at all. A blind person can look but never see. A deaf person can listen but never hear. This is the Christian concept of total depravity of mankind. It is a humbling recognized need for a Savior.

[Battosai]

Nipponman

Interesting theory.

Peru, Congo, Angola and Burundi are "Christian nations"

Japan is "Buddhist"

How does that fit in with your theory?

[elina]

David, you could make a quote like this:

ABC

1. select the content which you want to quote using your computer mouse, for example: ABC

2. press the yellow button on the left to the button #, which appears “Wrap

tags around selected text”

3. in the first

, add =elina like this:

(no space within the square brackets)

Originally' date=' gougou and Youshen helped me with this skill. Now I teach you. And I feel comfortable to be a “teacher”.

Hi Gougou. Good to hear from you! I certainly wouldn't object; I think you're right. And I apologize if some people feel that I have made my recent posts off-topic - Elina's original post was about religion, not philosophy - but I have been writing about philosophy for quite a few posts now!

David, I think you are not off-topic actually. Because the question in this thread is: religion? Or not religion? And then, which religion? When a person is not religious, he’ll mostly go to philosophy.

Of course not everything you discover in meditation is in the form of pain and suffering. Sometimes there are very blissful stages, but again we are advised to avoid identification with them as the tendency to try and recreate them is in itself a form of suffering (‘the suffering of separation’)

Do you mean？:

举例来说：如果你正经历着痛苦，这是痛苦的；如果你正经历着幸福，但你也要明白，幸福终将过去，这又是另一种意义上的痛苦。

For example: if you are experiencing suffering, it’s painful; if you are experiencing happy, but you have to know, the happy will go away finally, it’s another suffering in some sense.

I have other things to say, but do not know how to express well in English, I’ll think and discuss later.

Battosai, from your explanation on 净宗 and 禅宗, I think maybe we can call 净宗 a religion, but禅宗, to me, it seems like a kind of philosophy, or, a kind of thinking method.

Youshen, I really believe that there is a person who used to be a PLO Islamic terrorist, after he seriously studied the Bible, now he believes in Christianity. But please IMHO, in my maybe wrong opinion, I think it does not make more sense. Once my colleague Buddhist gave me a DVD to look. There is a 海涛法师 who used to be a Christian and now is a Buddhist. I asked my colleague Buddhist: is there a person who used to be a Buddhist and now is a Christian? She answered: certainly there is. 这就要看各人的理解和缘份了 / It’s up to every individual’s understanding and predestined relationship. I think maybe there is no that way, like: which religion is right or which religion is wrong. But there is a religion which is suitable to a person. I’m not sure for this. Till now because Buddhism is open-minded, so it is easier for me to accept. But I also admit and agree with Youshen’s saying: “Buddhism on this message board has only discussed the introspection aspects and hasn’t really touched on the “deity” aspect yet.” It’s a pity till now.

Shibo77, am I right to consider your meaning in your last post as follows:

任何真理都不是绝对的，或者，根本就没有绝对的真理。

Every truth is no absolute, or, ultimately there is no absolute truth.

In China churches are often raided and the congregations are either imprisoned or set to concentration (i.e. re-education) camps. How do i know these things? I did not learn these things from watching news, or reading books... but from meeting people that have endured such things.

From what I know (not only from watching news, or reading books, but from my mother who sometimes goes to church in Beijing), at least in Beijing, churches are NOT often raided and the congregations are NOT either imprisoned or set to concentration (i.e. re-education) camps. But I could be wrong, because I cannot know everything about this all over China. Also I’m not sure for this.

All the best to everyone sincerely!

[Long Zhiren]

Batosai (#119) and others,

Peru, etc are "Christian nations?" This concept of a "Christian nation" is quite an oxymoron if not a complete, but popular misnomer. It oversimplifies and flirts with bigotry.

Neither one's ancestry or nation make or generate one's religious beliefs. They have influence but frankly, a nation can not be Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, etc.

It might be Jewish or Hebrew, but it can not be Judaistic. Do you see how the semantics need to be separated?

If one is born in the US or Burundi, one is not automatically Christian because those are "Christian nations." A lot of people have the impression or belief to the contrary here but it's not exactly sensible. Creeds/philosophies can be influences but not catch-all identities unless there is uniformity in dogma for an entire people group. Uniformity in dogma does not exist at the nation level.

Elina (#120),

Regarding health associated with Christianity like your beloved mom, spiritual peace (平安) does have health [dividends] benefits.

The peace of the world grants nothing but peace of our goods and physical bodies. But in affliction (難過) and in the hour of death, the grace and favor of the world cannot help us.

In the world, people's consciences are tormented by sin (罪), conscience and everlasting death. People feel required/burdened to somehow prove, "by being good," that they are sufficiently valuable to the visible world and to the invisible world & God. Like a rat race, people toil and despair with free will, reason, powers of nature and good works to seek such peace. It's a hopeless race. Nobody ever finds peace of conscience in this manner...there's angst and suicide. There's desparation in drugs, alcohol, gambling, carnal desires, violence, abuse, crime, etc. Riches and power get nowhere either.

This terrifying burden/torment on a person's conscience has ill effects on physical, emotional and mental health.

In Christianity, Christ's work on the cross forgives all of one's sins and releases the believer from this torment. Sin, despair and everlasting death have been conquered. It is a peace that is impossible unless sins are forgiven.

The resulting quiet and joyful conscience is a relief to all aspects of health.

The peace of the world grants nothing but peace of our goods and physical bodies. The Christian's peace does not protect goods or physical body from the physical destructions in the world. But the person has been freed to live in love for God/neighbor rather than hopelessly suffering or fleeing the torment of compulsion.

Reference: Martin Luther's (馬丁路德) "Commentary on Galatians," (加拉太書 3.1: 願 恩 惠 、 平 安 從 父 神 與 我 們 的 主 耶 穌 基 督 歸 與 你 們 ！

The way Western people's names (eg 馬丁路德) get romanized always makes me laugh a little because I think they sound so funny. My favorite romanizations of names are Gregory Peck (哥萊哥萊畢克) and Arnold Schwarzeneggar (阿諾舒華辛力加).